The age old question that is bought up wherever two or more rugby fans meet, be it in the club rooms, at the pub, or on an internet forum.  Which team is the greatest to have graced the black jersey with the silver fern?

The older the debaters, the more ancient the teams that can be bought into the mix, and the harder it is to decide which team is the best.  So for arguments sake, and for the sake of being able to know at least a little about what I am talking about, we'll look at the All Black teams of the World Cup era.  So from 1987 through to 2006, the last 19 years.

Straight away, this will narrow down the choices to three teams, or eras.

First of course, that 1987 side, that won the first Rugby World Cup.  They then went on through 1988 and 1989, beating all 'n' sundry. The rot set in during 1990, and the wheels really fell off in the 1991 Rugby World Cup - a bridge too far for a great team well past their best.  So this team, the first candidate for the 'greatest' tag, for arguments sake, the 87-89 team.  This team, in all but remuneration, was probably the first ever professional team to hit the paddocks chasing a leather bound pigs bladder around.

The other team that can deservedly challenge for a 'great' title, and in fact is a great team in their own right (as is the 87-89 side), is the 1996 Boer beaters.  The first team to win a test series in South Africa.  These blokes grew from the 1995 Rugby World Cup finalists, and carried through into 1997, before the shit sandwich of a season that was 1998, and well, there was no time to build the base that was needed before the 1999 Rugby World Cup, and another disappointing result there for New Zealand rugby!  This team, we'll call the 95-97ers.

The current mob, their drive to greatness started in 2004, the year after the Rugby World Cup collapse of 2003.  They have charged through 2005, and carried on their merry way through 2006, beating everything that you can put in front of them - only losing to Australia (once), and South Africa (thrice) in this time.  Fortunately for world rugby though, a lot of these wins were against teams "that didn't turn up on the day".  What a load of shite that is.  Not as if the (for example) French team of 2004 didn't know that they were about to play the All Blacks was it, or the 2006 version, or the Welsh, or any other teams, whose fans are churning out excuses.  I would beg to differ in fact, and say that most teams that play the All Blacks raise their game by about five levels, as they are playing the benchmark team in the sport, but I digress, this entire 'not turning up' shite is for another day.

This team, the 04-06 team, and perhaps, maybe even longer - it is young enough, and keen enough to go for another two or three seasons without even changing any major personal.  Which will never happen, as rotation is bringing in new talent at a rate more than handy enough to replace the old stagers as they leave.  The most scary thing about this side, is the Godfather, Graham Henry proclaiming that the All Blacks can get 25% better than they were this season...

Right, lets check these teams out then, and then decide which team is numero uno (maybe, probably, in my opinion anyway)...

87-89.  The Rugby World Cup winning team.

Played 46 matches, 21 internationals.  Won 45 of them, and 20 out of the 21 internationals.  Details.

This team grew from the trials and tribulations of 1985 and 1986, when the 1985 tour of South Africa was cancelled, and a rebel tour proceeded in 1986.  This tour led to the selection of the nowfamous 'Baby Blacks' of 1986, who beat the French.  They then went on to get slaughtered on the end of season tour in France, including the infamous Nantes test, where they were smashed off the pitch.  So much so that there have been accusations that the French were 'on something' in that match.  Buck Shelford knows they were on something - his testicles at some stage, when his nut sack was torn, but that is another matter!

Anyway, the era.  1987-1989.  The only blemish was the 1988 third test draw with the Ockers.  Even then, a Grant Fox sideline conversion, of a Kirwan try, could have given the MiB a great comeback win.  It didn't though, so the perfect test record was missed.

There were more provincial matches than test matches in those far off days, a far cry from the next two eras.  The 2004-2006 era only having one non international on the books - and that not against a province, but against he Barbarians.  These provincial games, or the lack of them, are the reason the current international sides have 'rotation'.  The fringe, non first XV players were rolled out in these provincial games, and if they proved good enough in the midweek games, they would be moved into the big weekend games, and then, perhaps, the test matches.  No provincial games these days mean the only way players can be tested is in tests, hence rotation to build the depth.

But I digress, the 87-89 team and their achievements?  Well, there was the small matter of the Rugby World Cup win.  Also undefeated in 46 matches, including 21 internationals.  They played some pretty exciting rugby too. John Kirwan rampaging up the field, Michael Jones rampaging down the field, the rolling mauls that the All Black pack perfected - all beautiful in their own way, and all adding to the myth that was this unbeatable All Black team.

This era also saw some genuine All Black greats on the scene.  Players who would be bought up in those pub conversations when picking your best All Black team since 1987 sort of thing - of all time in some cases too no doubt, but not been able to remember that far back, just since 1987 will have to do.

The players though, genuine greats started their careers in this era.  If you look at the starting XV from the 1987 final, there are many future greats there.  When you add in the extras that started their careers in the two seasons that followed, it is not surprising that these three seasons were so good for All Black rugby.

The Rugby World Cup Finals team:  1 Steve McDowell, 2 Sean Fitzpatrick, 3 John Drake, 4 Gary Whetton, 5 Murray Pierce, 6 Alan Whetton, 7 Michael Jones, 8 Wayne Shelford, 9 David Kirk (c), 10 Grant Fox, 11 Craig Green, 12 Warwick Taylor, 13 Joe Stanley, 14 John Kirwan, 15 John Gallagher.

Not a shabby lot - class from 1 through to 15.  Now add the players that weren't in that World Cup winning team, but came on the scene in the next two seasons. 

The next influx you have the likes of Ian Jones (touring in 1989, with no tests, but 5 provincial games), Zinzan Brooke (who was part of the 1987 squad, debuting against Argentina, as an openside), Richard Loe (also a part of the 1987 squad), Mike Brewer (who was named in the 1987 squad but injured), Inga Tuigamala, Walter Little, Craig Innes, Graham Bachop, Johnny Schuster, the list goes on, (but my research doesn't).  Suffice to say, there were a lot of class players over those three years.

Anyway, genuine All Black great from this era - click in their names for their full test records (from the www.rugbymuseum.co.nz website).

Steve McDowell.  1985-1992.  81 matches, 46 tests.  3 test tries.
The first of the modern day props, a front rower who could do the deeds in the deep dark depths of rucks and mauls and in the set pieces, but also run with the ball like a super sized loose forward!

Sean Fitzpatrick.  1986-1997.  128 matches, 92 tests.  12 test tries.
Longevity alone makes Fitzy a great.  The fact that he is the most capped All Black even, and second only to Colin Meads in All Black matches, from the high fatality position (injury wise) of hooker just adds to the aura.  He was a damn fine player too, going from a ire breathing hot head to one of the great captains the All Blacks have had.

Richard Loe.  1986-1995.  78 matches, 49 tests.  6 test tries.
Would do anything to win a game of rugby, and stepped over the line on a few occasions at test and NPC level.  Those discretions aside, he was a powerful prop, able to play both heads of the scrum equally well.  In the era of the rolling maul, the site of Loe getting the ball, standing and building the maul around him was power personified.  He'd stand and just hold off his opponents until the maul was built, and then off it would trolley up the field!

Gary Whetton.  1981-1991.  101 matches, 58 tests.  1 test try.
Soured the end of his career with the Buck Shelford captaincy takeover, but lets not dwell on that supposed back stab hatchet job.  If McDowell was the first of the modern day props, than Whetton cut the way through the bush for the first of the multi skilled locks.  Was a skilled ball runner and got around the field making tackles and in general playing rugby as we see it today.  Not just a set piece tight forward which was so common in days gone by.  Will never forget his test debut against the Boers in 1981, the third test, and this 21 year old lock rampaging up the field with the ball in hand.  Powerful lineout forward in the days of no lifting, where the ability to jump while elbowing your opponent in the face was vital!!

Ian Jones.  1989-1999.  105 matches, 78 tests.  9 test tries.
Started as a bean pole leaping salmon of a player, who would not have looked out of place on a pole vault rack, and ended his career looking like a genuine test lock.  The All Blacks 'go to' man for most of his 78 tests, formed one of the best locking partnerships in All Black times with Robin Brooke.  Ball skills galore, would not have been out of place as a blindside flanker in his time.  Scored a hat trick for the Chiefs in the Super 12.  Most capped All Black test lock.

Michael Jones.  1987-1998.  74 matches, 55 tests.  13 test tries.
By jeez we've been blessed with open side flankers since 1987.  First Jones, then Kronfeld, and now Richie McCaw.  All the best in the world while they played, and also the best the All Blacks had seen, until the next openside breakaway came along in the line of kings!  When Jones started his All Black career the tackle ball area was not like it is today at all, the forwards just tore in and cleaned out all and sundry - the ripping of the ball off the ground almost non existent.  Jones main job was linking when the backs made their numerous breaks.  After his knee injury, he became one of the best blindside flankers the All Blacks ever saw too, ending his career as a 110kg tackling machine, after starting it as a 90 odd kilo flying opensider.

Buck Shelford.  1985-1990.  48 matches, 22 tests.  5 test tries.
Any man who plays on after he has had his nut sack ripped open is a great in my books!!  Shelford was a take no prisoners player, who led from the front.  A follow me leader, and a rare thing in this day and age, an unbeaten All Black captain.  A tight playing number eight, played a no frills style that involved lots of hard work, and maximum pain for any opponents. 

Zinzan Brooke.  1987-1997.  100 matches, 58 tests.  17 test tries, 3 drop goals!
Had a battle royal with Shelford for the test jersey to start with, and once that battle was won, had to go on and win a battle with Laurie Mains, the new All Black coach who preferred his won boys at eight, Aaron Pene and the ilk, before the multi talented Zinny won his way back into the team, and, in that 1995 RWC, and 1996 series win in Boerland, probably proved he is the best number eight to have ever worn a black jersey.  Certainly the most skilled we have seen.

Graham Bachop  1987-1995.  54 matches, 31 tests.  4 test tries.
Probably no All Black halfback in these eras have had as well a rounded game as the quietly spoken Cantabrian halfback.  Had the best clearance from the ruck area that you would want to see.  No stepping before passing - ball firing like a missile from the ground to the first five.

Grant Fox.  1984-1993.  78 matches, 46 tests.  1 test try, 188 conversions, 128 penalties, 7 drop goals.  645 points.
Would certainly need to adjust his game a touch or ten if he was to play in the modern era.  But that is now, and Foxy played then, and was a  great.  Kicked the All Blacks no numerous wins, and drove the Rolls Royce All Black packs of his era around the field with his educated right boot.  Certainly a match winner though, and read the game well, with record try scoring wings playing outside him attesting to his knowledge and nous in knowing when and where to spin it to his outsides.

Walter Little.  1989-1998.  75 matches, 50 tests.  9 test tries.
A gifted second five who formed one of the better 12-13 combinations along with Frank Bunce that the All Blacks have had in the last 20 years.  I'm betting the current All Blacks, who have had a different pair in midfield for the last 18 tests would have liked this pair, or something like it!  He also had time at first five in his test career, and in his first pairing with Bunce, he was at 13, and his partner in crime 12!

Joe Stanley.  1986-1990.  49 matches, 27 tests.  4 test tries.
Smokin' Joe.  Not the fastest, not the strongest, but the best at his job of setting his wingers away for tries.  His defence though was the best - if he didn't invent the spot tackle, he sure as hell perfected it.  The modern day umbrella rush defence was built for Joe, he would have been superb at blindsiding poor ball runners, which he did pretty much anyway!

John Kirwan.  1984-1994.  96 matches, 63 tests.  35 test tries.
The original 'wonder winger' of the modern era, bigger, stronger, faster than anything else that was out there at the time, and bloody skilled with it.  Set try scoring and test match records in his time - although they are all gone now.  Had a mean step on him for a big guy, a no nonsense fend, and pace to burn once he hit the gap.  Was slowed down by his achillies injury on tour in Wales in 1989, but ended up a different, bust just as effective player, used more on the crash close in than worked into space on the outside.  Was still good enough spend a season with the Warriors league side at the end of his rugby career.

95-97.  The Boer Beaters.

Played 48 matches, 35 internationals.  Won 43, 31 of the internationals, drawing 2, 1 international.  Details.

This side was the almost side - if they had won the 1995 Rugby World Cup, followed by the 1996 series win, you could safely claim that this was the best All Black side ever.  As it was, the stumbled at the RWC hurdle, but did win the series, and is still up in the front running for the greatest team of all.

Achievements for this team - obviously the series win, and making the 1995 RWC final.  The series win though, ayeeee, there's the rub.  Finally beating the Boers in their own backyard.  The official series was three matches, with the first test in South Africa a Tri Nations test only.  So officially, we won the series 2-1, but I like to add in the Tri test, and that makes it 3-1!  It was a massive effort, who will ever forget the Pretoria win, 33-26, and the last 20 minutes of defence as the giant Boer pack battered at the All Blacks line, which just refused to fold.  I certainly won't for as long as I live!

Like the 1987-1989 era, many All Black greats featured in this era, or first cut their teeth here.  You have the previously profiled players above who were pretty much in their prime during the series win era.  Sean Fitzpatrick, Richard Loe, Ian Jones, Michael Jones, and Zinzan Brooke were still going strong here, adding steel and experience to the core of the All Blacks. 

They were joined by an influx of genuine greats.  Craig Dowd and Olo Brown on the propping front.  Robin Brooke in the second row, Josh Kronfeld taking over from Michael Jones on the flank, Justin Marshall the most capped halfback in All Black history, Andrew Mehrtens at ten, Frank Bunce at centre, wings Jeff Wilson and Jonah Lomu, and of course, the best fullback to have worn black, Christian Cullen.  All joined the list of bloody good players from these years.  Anton Oliver also first played for the All Blacks on that 1996 tour of South Africa, no test matches, but the mid weeks games only, it was a year later when he debuted at test level.

So the new greats that were plying their trade 95-97 - and some more deserving names here too.  I should be harsher in my judgments, but all these players deserve are pretty damn good.

Craig Dowd.  1993-2000.  67 matches, 60 tests.  2 tries.
Along with Fitzy, a great from the first team era, and Olo Brown, for a few seasons there made the best front row in the world.  Dowd was a big strong bugger, better at loosehead than on the tight, although later in his career he started playing a bit at three.  One of the better ball running props to have played for New Zealand, and skilled in all facets of his set play.  If McDowell was the first of the modern day props, then Dowd was the next generation - bigger, better, stronger, faster - maybe not faster, but he was the next step along the evolutionary chain!

Olo Brown.  1990-1998.  69 matches, 56 tests.  4 tries.
Not the biggest prop around, but a text book lesson on how to play tight head prop.  A back so straight you could eat your dinner off of it at scrum time.  Like Dowd a set piece technician, who added those extras around the field that are now common place in the props of today.

Robin Brooke.  1992-1999.  69 matches, 62 tests.  4 tries.
Hard nosed lineout exponent who made the tight five of this era one of the best to have ever graced the All Blacks.  Along with Ian Jones in the second row formed a lock pairing that was seldom bettered, pre and post lifting days.  Not the tallest of international locks, but made up for the lack of genuine height with genuine street smarts.  One of those locks that when jumping seems to grow an extra five elbows on the way up, and another half dozen on the way back down.  Keith Robinson, I think, could be the closest to Brooke of the modern crop of All Black locks.

Josh Kronfeld.  1995-2000.  56 matches, 54 tests.  14 tries.
We've been blessed with some fantastic openside flankers over the years, from Mourie to Hobbs to Jones to Kronfeld to McCaw.  That is a mouthwatering lineup, that takes us from the seventies until today, almost thirty years of the best.  Kronfeld was the first though t be a genuine scrounger, as the game evolved to need that sort of player - the first to the breakdown and get hands onto the ball type thing.  Previous to that, the sevens were more link men - like Braid is today for Auckland.  Kronfeld though had the link game going, along with the rip the ball from the tackle thing.  Hands would let him down now and then, but when he combined with Jones as a six, and Zinzan Brooke as an eight, this was one hell of a loose trio - complimenting that tight five like eggs on steak!!

Justin Marshall.  1995-2005.  88 matches, 81 tests.  24 tries.
Much maligned, so who am I to fight the trend...  Seriously though, not the quickest clearance in the world, but was more than adequate, and his running game, and fourth loose forwardness fitted the All Black teams of this era well.  Was also a part of the start of the next era, but was weeded out by the Henry Cartel, perhaps not for his playing abilities, so much as the effect he has on the team off the field.  Still, in his prime was up there with the worlds best, and along with Gregan, one of the best defensive halfbacks the world has seen.

Andrew Mehrtens.  1995-2004.  72 matches, 70 tests.  7 tries, 172 conversions, 195 penalties, 10 drop goals, 994 points.
Defence never strong point, but scoring points was - 994 in total.  Always had great vision and could read a game like a book. Accurate kicker, and dangerous runner when he chose to take the line on.

Frank Bunce.  1992-1997.  60 matches, 55 tests.  20 tries.
What was Buncy, 31 when he first played for the All Blacks?  And over the next four seasons made the 13 jersey his own - after debuting in 12, with Walter Little at 13!  Hard arse defence, coupled with the same attitude on attack made Bunce a handful for any team.  Never accused of being a pace merchant, my strongest memory of Bunce was his 60 metre angled run against the Boers in Boerland to score in one of the early Tri Nations seasons.  This was after he was written off again as being too old and too slow for international rugby.

Jeff Wilson.  1993-2001.  71 matches, 60 tests.  44 tries, conversion, 3 penalties, drop goal, 234 points.
One of the most skilled players to have pulled on a black jersey.  Had the full range of skills, and would have probably been able to play at ten even had he wanted to!  Was also a pretty handy fullback, although at international level never really produced the goods when wearing fifteen on his back.  Was at his peak through this teams 'greatness', with Lomu and Cullen forming a dream back three.  With this three at the back you had three players with the pace to go the length of the field and finish a break.

Tana Umaga.  1997-2005.  79 matches, 74 tests, 36 tries.
From wing to midfield, and class all over.  Umaga developed into one of the best centres New Zealand has had for many years, after being one of the best wings we have seen too.  A beast on defence, with a loose forward like ability to make the tackle and spring back to his feet to rip the ball free.  Developed a sweet passing game from centre the more he played there.

Jonah Lomu.  1994-2002.  73 matches, 63 tests.  37 tries.
The 95 Rugby World Cup is Lomu's Cup.  Despite the All Blacks failing to win the tournament, the man of the tournament was the big (Auckland born) Tongan wrecking ball.  His tries against the Poms, the Catt walkover being the highlight, and in general his unstoppable runs were a joy to watch.  Not much you can say about Jonah that has not been said before.  A true legend.

Christian Cullen.  1996-2002.  60 matches, 58 tests.  46 tries, 3 conversions, 236 points.
His first few seasons for the All Blacks were just magic.  Unstoppable, stepping off either foot at full pace, beating defenders at will, he had it all.  Things started to fall apart a bit later in his career when he was moved to the wing and also to centre, along with a knee injury.  Should have been left at fullback to work his magic, not been shafted around the paddock in different positions.  The All Blacks have not had a fullback with the pace of try scoring ability before or since he finished his time in the black jersey.

So the above the first two teams in the mix, and you are able to judge them on what they have done, not like the current team, which is still going on with their 'era' of greatness.  But on what the current team has already done, you can at least measure that up against the first two sides.

04-06.  Henry's Heroes.

Played 37 (36 internationals), won 33 (32 internationals), lost 4 internationals.  Details.

Even at this early stage, it is hard to go past this team as the greatest.  They have lost to just 2 teams in 3 seasons, unbeaten on end of season tours, unbeaten at home, losing away to the Boers 3 times, and Australia once.

Among those wins are a clean sweep of the best prepared team to ever leave the British Isles (or some such crap type quote from Clive Woodentop), and ahh, to be fair sod all else.  Beating Australia and South Africa on a regular basis is nothing to really crow about, Australia in particular, as they have fallen to pieces over the last few years, and the Boers, well, we all know their record away from home - crap.  The French wins though, the first test this season, and the 2004 thumping were good-uns.

At the moment there are two players who already qualify to be mentioned in the same breath as Colin Meads and Sean Fitzpatrick.  Yes, we all know who - McCaw and Carter (OK, almost in the same breath).  These two are already penned into any 'greatest' team list.  Joining them in the not too distant future, especially if World Cup glory comes this way in a few short months will be, in no particular order...

Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock, Kevin Mealamu.  The three front rowers, along with Oliver, who may sneak in too the 'greats' lists too, who have bought about the dominance at set pieces that was lacking from the All Blacks for so long.  But no longer - isn't it bloody great too!!

Chris Jack and Ali Williams.  Jack for longevity as much as anything - he needs to pull finger though, he seems to have been treading water for the last 18 months, and Williams if he can 'get his head right' all the time.  Both monsters of men.

Jerry Collins.  Not a monster of a man, but a man who monsters men, with and without the ball.  I think Collins will be listed among the best loose forwards to have worn black, RWC win or not.  His game has developed out of sight from the head hunting tackling machine he once was.  Now his tackles are more ferocious, legal, and he has a multi dimensional attacking game.

The likes of Howlett, Rokocoko, Mauger, So'oilao, Oliver, Muliaina, Sivivatu, Somerville - these blokes will need the RWC win to be labeled greats of any sort - and have a career that carries on after the RWC for the likes of Sivivatu.  Oliver and Howlett have both been around for ages, and the term 'great' seems perhaps past them, but a win in 2007, then perhaps.

Anyway, best team of these three.  At the moment, you could probably argue until you are blue in the face the cases for all three sides.  The '87 side perhaps lagging a little behind the '96 boys and current lot.

However, there will be no arguments entered into if the World Cup is won next year - that will throw the 2004-2007 team into a clear first position in the 'greatest team' debate - perhaps greatest ever.

Fingers crossed then eh!!