Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II



  • Milne or McClenaghan in for Henry in Shark's team. You've got to have people who can do something more than pitch it on a length at the death. Milne is way better than Ferguson at this stage, but the idea of fielding a couple of 150k+ bowlers at some point has appeal. Maybe not on an Australian road, though!

    Neesham doing well at 4 was the biggest positive to come out of this series for me.

    For the final game, might as well roll the dice a bit and give all of Nicholls, Ferguson and Astle a game.

    Rest Santner and Henry and - I'd be perhaps inclined to give Tom Latham a rest and try someone else opening. Maybe Nicholls, maybe Munro, maybe even Watling though that doesn't seem likely to become a long term option.



  • @No-Quarter said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    @hydro11 said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    If we needed another specialist bat Tom Bruce is an option. He's a big hitter for sure - probably similar to Munro.

    Bloody hell that kid is striking at 136 in List-A. Looks like a pretty impressive start to his first class career, could be worth a shout at some stage over summer. IMO we need to get guys like this early and iron out any flaws in their technique. No point leaving him plundering domestic attacks for years and then promoting him when it's too late to fix any deficiencies that would be exposed at the next level up.

    I remember watching him a year or so back at Pukekura Park and that ground just couldn't contain him. I think that could have something to do with the high strike rate however.



  • @hydro11 said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    @Crucial said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    I think it's great that we have been trying to find tweakers for test cricket but are there really no accurate slow bowlers out there in NZ? The kind of guys that may get found out once an over and hit for 4 but end up 10 overs for 40-50.

    I don't think anyone in world cricket has accurate slow bowlers, really? At least there is no bowler who can keep it to 4 runs an over long term. Besides, Santner has just bowled 19 overs for something like 87 runs in this series so he is well below 5 runs in an over. I think only Tahir, Narine and Shakib can do that job in ODI's. Santner isn't as good as them because he isn't very dangerous but his accuracy is good.

    Most of them now are fast spinners. Jadaja barely tries to spin it & just bowls fast & tight, Moen tends to fire it in & so did Afridi & Tredwell. The only other slower bowlers are the huge turners - Narine, Mishra, Tahir as you note.

    http://tinyurl.com/Cricinfor-RR

    Pretty much no bowler has been under 4 an over in the last 3 years. The thing we are missing we had in the past is an Angelo Matthews style bowler, like Styris, Oram, Harris, Astle



  • @Rapido Heard a bit of Radiosport yesterday - which I eventually had to turn off - where they were lambasting Kane for not batting first - as though it was a complete fuck-up that removed all chance of us winning.

    Now - it is true in some places where you get evening dew - that conditions are going to change markedly and there's advantages to batting second. And on other occasions the pitch or weather might dictate a bit of advantage. But, beyond that - batting first or second in an ODI is largely a psychological decision.

    If you put a team in and bowl them out cheaply - it's a good decision. If they post a big score it's a bad decision. Same difference if you bat first.

    Usually, I have to say, everything else being equal, I like batting first. But, one of the things about the Aussies is that they've got Starc and Hazelwood to open up, so there's a reasonable prospect they're going to knock over our top order and we're out of the game before it's really started. So there's a lot to be said for letting them go first and hoping they'll chase a total too hard and set us a sub-par total.

    Reality is - their bowlers are a bit better than ours and so are their batsmen. So our slightly worse batsmen are facing their slightly better bowlers and that adds up to quite a significant difference - meaning we'll usually lose regardless of whether we bat or bowl first.



  • @Chris-B. At Manuka you bat first if you win the toss. Anyone that has a bit of local knowledge and a quick read of the records there would know that.
    I was extremely surprised and disappointed by that decision of Kane.

    Still your point does stand, they have an overall better bowling group than ours. But that still lends to batting first because runs on the board can be helpful to a lesser bowling unit.



  • @ACT-Crusader said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    @Chris-B. At Manuka you bat first if you win the toss. Anyone that has a bit of local knowledge and a quick read of the records there would know that.

    Why? Why does the team that bats first win?

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/records/team/match_results.html?class=2;id=757;type=ground

    I reckon there's a better case that the best team has always won and that coincides with that they've usually batted first.



  • For one thing Canberra is prone to thunderstorms and downpours. I haven't checked that ODI list but seem to remember a number of matches that end up in the D/L lottery (was at one PMs XI one that was a washout from memory). As these downpours are usually unpredicted and almost appear from nowhere in the evening the side batting second gets added pressure.
    Secondly Canberra is at a reasonable altitude. The air can be quite dry with any humidity to assist bowlers only appearing late in the evening.
    Thirdly the best conditions for batting are usually in the arvo when the temp has held steady for a few hours. There are quite big temp swings (eg 20 degrees C) that happen once the sun goes down.
    As a comparison in NZ you are looking at Central Otago type weather. Would you bat first at Queenstown in a day night match



  • @Crucial said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    For one thing Canberra is prone to thunderstorms and downpours. I haven't checked that ODI list but seem to remember a number of matches that end up in the D/L lottery (was at one PMs XI one that was a washout from memory). As these downpours are usually unpredicted and almost appear from nowhere in the evening the side batting second gets added pressure.
    Secondly Canberra is at a reasonable altitude. The air can be quite dry with any humidity to assist bowlers only appearing late in the evening.
    Thirdly the best conditions for batting are usually in the arvo when the temp has held steady for a few hours. There are quite big temp swings (eg 20 degrees C) that happen once the sun goes down.
    As a comparison in NZ you are looking at Central Otago type weather. Would you bat first at Queenstown in a day night match

    I don't disagree with any of that, and for typical games batting first is a no brainer. However, with Southee in the team looking for swing, a toss and start delayed because of rain, a tacky pitch that they thought would dry and rain around, I can see why you'd bowl first.

    Bat or bowl first, it doesn't matter if the fielding is shite and the bowling rubbish.

    Worst thing for us: Mitch Marsh looked like a world beater
    Worst thing for @NTA Mitch Marsh looked like a world beater and will play a bunch more games for Aus



  • @Crucial said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    For one thing Canberra is prone to thunderstorms and downpours. I haven't checked that ODI list but seem to remember a number of matches that end up in the D/L lottery (was at one PMs XI one that was a washout from memory). As these downpours are usually unpredicted and almost appear from nowhere in the evening the side batting second gets added pressure.
    Secondly Canberra is at a reasonable altitude. The air can be quite dry with any humidity to assist bowlers only appearing late in the evening.
    Thirdly the best conditions for batting are usually in the arvo when the temp has held steady for a few hours. There are quite big temp swings (eg 20 degrees C) that happen once the sun goes down.
    As a comparison in NZ you are looking at Central Otago type weather. Would you bat first at Queenstown in a day night match

    I think if rain is about that should encourage you to bat second. D/L favours the team batting second.

    Regardless, I think Kane made the wrong decision at the toss. I just don't see why it is worthwhile discussing that when you lose by over 100 runs. When you let the other team score 378, I don't think the toss matters.



  • Some of that is fair enough, Crucial - if it happens. But, to be honest, I didn't see any real change in conditions during that match. I think we thought conditions were such that if there was going to be much help at all it would be early on and that's fair enough. Ex post I don't think the decision to bat or bowl played any real role in the outcome of the game. As Hydro says - the game was lost when we let the Aussies score 378.

    In fact, we were ahead of the Aussies run rate up until about the 38th over - but, they had more wickets in hand and finished like a train - and we didn't have the batsmen to do that against their bowling.

    Interestingly, I recall watching the previous game at Manuka between Oz and India and the story there also wasn't about conditions - it was about a horrendous collapse by India from 277/1 - needing only about 70 runs from the last dozen overs.



  • Chris makes a good point. If you are picking 3 strike bowlers as we did, you probably want to bowl first. I think the game showed why you don't want to pick 3 strike bowlers. Henry, Southee and Boult need something from the surface to be effective. If Milne and McClenaghan were there it doesn't matter so much.



  • Not throwing a bunch of pies might also help. Boult put down a few wides, Henry had 2nb 2w, the rest had a handful.

    The point is: 24 extras (lb 11, w 10, nb 3) for the BCs versus 5 extras ( lb 1, w 4) for the BGs.



  • @NTA said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    Not throwing a bunch of pies might also help. Boult put down a few wides, Henry had 2nb 2w, the rest had a handful.

    The point is: 24 extras (lb 11, w 10, nb 3) for the BCs versus 5 extras ( lb 1, w 4) for the BGs.

    This makes me smile!

    Now I can imagine how you guys feel when 'we' give you tips on how to improve your rugby team.

    It's slightly humiliating!



  • Well I wasn't trying to be a complete prick :)

    But I well remember how recently some important Australian deliveries - particularly noball wickets - have hurt my team.

    When they put up that stat about your bloke, Ferguson, being the first Kiwi to overstep in about 8000 deliveries, I found that kind of amazing.

    Its bloody obvious, right? Train like you play, play like you train: don't fucking overstep!!!

    And with noballs potentially worth double-figures like that first game in Sydney, its murder.



  • So our batting has been shit bar Guppy, our bowling has been shit, and our fielding has been shit. 3 key areas to work on there...



  • @No-Quarter start with the fielding. Catches win matches and all that shit. Series could be 1-1 if a few had been taken in Sydney.



  • i reckon we've got to give guppy a run at 5 in the test team, and just say have at it mate. he's far too talented a player to leave out given our relatively meagre resources. starc is the best in the world, hazelwood is pretty handy too and he just looks more comfortable than anyone else against them. there has to be some way to get him to succeed with a red ball.



  • @reprobate said in Aus v NZ -Chappell Hadlee series II:

    i reckon we've got to give guppy a run at 5 in the test team, and just say have at it mate. he's far too talented a player to leave out given our relatively meagre resources. starc is the best in the world, hazelwood is pretty handy too and he just looks more comfortable than anyone else against them. there has to be some way to get him to succeed with a red ball.

    I totally misread that!

    I read "I reckon we've got to give guppy a run in the test team"

    I was wondering where you had been in the past decade...



  • @Hooroo yeah well that wording would work too - it fucken very obviously isn't the same bloke that's playing in the ODIs!



  • Agreed on Guppy to 5 in the test team - it worked out well for Astle (opening in ODIs, batting at 5 in tests).


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