US Politics



  • On Flynn, I suspect there is more to it than he fibbed to Pence once.
    Trump usually doesn't bend to press pressure(or anyone for that matter)



  • Correlation, causality... or stuff that was just going on anyway?



  • Intel community trying to undermine Trump's presidency?
    Former Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) (calls out Pizzagate at the end - ha ha )



  • @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.

    Because Fox News reported it it as so? Because that interviewee says so?
    The Russian ambassadors call was intercepted. Flynn was the other party. It wasn't leaked to the press, it was provided through the correct channels to the president. The leak came from within the White House. Trump said so via twitter.
    I don't know if this is some kind of tit for tat misinformation campaign to counter so called fake news but the blatant lies to the media are beyond spin now.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Didn't I read that the wiretap was on the Russian ambassador, not on Flynn? I'd have thought they'd at least attempt to tap every single communication with the Russians that they can, not just official ones.

    Edit - sorry, Crucial was way ahead of me. Ignore me.



  • the assertion that some in the intel community are gunning for Trump seems to be true though. They were publicly made an enemy of the administration and, in their eyes, had their importance demeaned. Some are now leaking to fight back.
    The recent allegations that Flynn wasn't the only Trumpee talking to the Russians has come directly from current and ex (I assume recently so) intel workers.



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.

    Because Fox News reported it it as so? Because that interviewee says so?
    The Russian ambassadors call was intercepted. Flynn was the other party. It wasn't leaked to the press, it was provided through the correct channels to the president. The leak came from within the White House. Trump said so via twitter.
    I don't know if this is some kind of tit for tat misinformation campaign to counter so called fake news but the blatant lies to the media are beyond spin now

    Which president? The tap was done under Obama. As for where the leak came from, can you provide a source for your assertion that it came from the White House?



  • @JC said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Didn't I read that the wiretap was on the Russian ambassador, not on Flynn? I'd have thought they'd at least attempt to tap every single communication with the Russians that they can, not just official ones.

    Edit - sorry, Crucial was way ahead of me. Ignore me.

    So? It is still illegal to wiretap a US citizen without going through legal channels.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Didn't I read that the wiretap was on the Russian ambassador, not on Flynn? I'd have thought they'd at least attempt to tap every single communication with the Russians that they can, not just official ones.

    Edit - sorry, Crucial was way ahead of me. Ignore me.

    So? It is still illegal to wiretap a US citizen without going through legal channels.

    That boat sailed under Obama. The infrastructure they setup over the past decade makes the recent 1984 bleating seem far too late.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.

    Because Fox News reported it it as so? Because that interviewee says so?
    The Russian ambassadors call was intercepted. Flynn was the other party. It wasn't leaked to the press, it was provided through the correct channels to the president. The leak came from within the White House. Trump said so via twitter.
    I don't know if this is some kind of tit for tat misinformation campaign to counter so called fake news but the blatant lies to the media are beyond spin now

    Which president? The tap was done under Obama. As for where the leak came from, can you provide a source for your assertion that it came from the White House?

    I'll try and look back for it but I'm fairly certain that the sources referred to originally were 'White House ' ones not agency ones.
    The tap was done under Obama, yes, but wasn't a tap on Flynn as you claim. Nor was it 'illegal'. Pretty standard stuff since forever to intercept Comms from embassies.
    The interception would have only become of interest after Pence said Flynn assured him that sanctions weren't discussed. That then becomes a risk of blackmail against Flynn for lying so was briefed as such through the DoJ.
    Given that the WH is about as secure as a sieve at the moment with regard to information (source Pres. Trump @ twitter) why would it surprise you that the story broke from within?



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Didn't I read that the wiretap was on the Russian ambassador, not on Flynn? I'd have thought they'd at least attempt to tap every single communication with the Russians that they can, not just official ones.

    Edit - sorry, Crucial was way ahead of me. Ignore me.

    So? It is still illegal to wiretap a US citizen without going through legal channels.

    This is the stupid thing.. Flynn was in that game. The first assumption anyone in that game makes when communicating via anything other than an encrypted system in a SKIF is that someone else is probably listening.



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.

    Because Fox News reported it it as so? Because that interviewee says so?
    The Russian ambassadors call was intercepted. Flynn was the other party. It wasn't leaked to the press, it was provided through the correct channels to the president. The leak came from within the White House. Trump said so via twitter.
    I don't know if this is some kind of tit for tat misinformation campaign to counter so called fake news but the blatant lies to the media are beyond spin now

    Which president? The tap was done under Obama. As for where the leak came from, can you provide a source for your assertion that it came from the White House?

    I'll try and look back for it but I'm fairly certain that the sources referred to originally were 'White House ' ones not agency ones.
    The tap was done under Obama, yes, but wasn't a tap on Flynn as you claim. Nor was it 'illegal'. Pretty standard stuff since forever to intercept Comms from embassies.
    The interception would have only become of interest after Pence said Flynn assured him that sanctions weren't discussed. That then becomes a risk of blackmail against Flynn for lying so was briefed as such through the DoJ.
    Given that the WH is about as secure as a sieve at the moment with regard to information (source Pres. Trump @ twitter) why would it surprise you that the story broke from within?

    The source? Thats it?
    Well that means squat.
    And yes it is 100% illegal. You cannot listen in on US citizens conversations without going through the legal process.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Forgetting the source for a moment, my understanding is that they cannot tap US citizens and the argument in this case is that they were tapping the Russian Embassy not Flynn?



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @booboo said in US Politics:

    Just a reminder folks. This thread was shut down because it got too heated.

    As I understand it we are conducting "extreme vetting" on posts. Don't take it personally.

    Rancid. I deleted your post. Not because I disagreed with it (I actually liked it) , but because we want to avoid avoid this thread turning into a thread about posters again.
    I would have also deleted the posts that prompted your reply as well (@Gollum , @Catogrande ).. but the thread has moved on.

    And I can assure you that many posters posts are getting removed.. you just dont see them :)

    If the post of mine that you refer to was about things being quiet on here, it was very much meant tongue in cheek, not as a snide side-swipe at anyone. Apologies if it was taken that way.



  • @Catogrande said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Forgetting the source for a moment, my understanding is that they cannot tap US citizens and the argument in this case is that they were tapping the Russian Embassy not Flynn?

    Doesnt make a difference, they are not allowed to record conversations of citizens.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Not quite. They just have to get the right authorisations. They are allowed to continuously intercept communications by foreign agents. If a US counterpart is involved they need to get that authorised afterwards.

    I have no idea whether authorisation was obtained here though.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Catogrande said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Forgetting the source for a moment, my understanding is that they cannot tap US citizens and the argument in this case is that they were tapping the Russian Embassy not Flynn?

    Doesnt make a difference, they are not allowed to record conversations of citizens.

    Since when? -

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/washington/06nsa.html

    Bush OK'd it in 2007. The NSA can tap anyone they want, so long as it broadly in the national interests. Patriot Act greenlit almost anything, Bush, then Obama expanded it. Its all part of the war on terror. Hard to argue tapping a Russian talking to an unelected ex spook doesn't fall under that...

    The ridiculous thing re Flynn is Carter Page & Paul Manafort have already been shitcanned over links to Russia brought to light the same way, its not like he wouildn't have known the spotlight was on. He just assumed he was bulletproof because he was with Trump. Its that mentality of "I can break the law & comit treason if it helps Trump"

    Re posters going missing, it was slightly tongue in cheek after I went on holiday for 2 weeks, came back to full on abuse, so it seemed slightly ironic the tumbleweeds on here given the day before it'd been Trump central. Obviously I fully apologise if I hurt anyone.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @Frank It is actually terrible that the US spy agencies wire tapped a U.S. citizen, with no legal basis, and then released to the media. That is horrific. No matter what side you support, the ramifications are enormous.

    Because Fox News reported it it as so? Because that interviewee says so?
    The Russian ambassadors call was intercepted. Flynn was the other party. It wasn't leaked to the press, it was provided through the correct channels to the president. The leak came from within the White House. Trump said so via twitter.
    I don't know if this is some kind of tit for tat misinformation campaign to counter so called fake news but the blatant lies to the media are beyond spin now

    Which president? The tap was done under Obama. As for where the leak came from, can you provide a source for your assertion that it came from the White House?

    I'll try and look back for it but I'm fairly certain that the sources referred to originally were 'White House ' ones not agency ones.
    The tap was done under Obama, yes, but wasn't a tap on Flynn as you claim. Nor was it 'illegal'. Pretty standard stuff since forever to intercept Comms from embassies.
    The interception would have only become of interest after Pence said Flynn assured him that sanctions weren't discussed. That then becomes a risk of blackmail against Flynn for lying so was briefed as such through the DoJ.
    Given that the WH is about as secure as a sieve at the moment with regard to information (source Pres. Trump @ twitter) why would it surprise you that the story broke from within?

    The source? Thats it?
    Well that means squat.
    And yes it is 100% illegal. You cannot listen in on US citizens conversations without going through the legal process.

    Ok I traced this back to the Washington Post who others have credited as breaking the story.
    I concede I was wrong, having misread a CNN article.

    • The WP source's were described as "current and former U.S. officials"
      -CNN had said "A White House official also confirmed the warning"

    So the original leak about the warning from Yates didn't come from the WH.

    However, my point that the concerns originally went through the proper channels was correct. The leak came after a failure to act by the WH. Leaving Flynn in his position after receiving that briefing was plain stupid and potentially dangerous. This provided the 'sources' the inclination to go to the press.

    As for the illegality of the intercept....this from the WSJ explains the intercepts

    "U.S. intelligence services routinely get orders from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to monitor foreign officials. But under U.S. law, when they get those orders they are supposed to use “minimization” procedures that don’t let them listen to the communications of Americans who may be caught in such eavesdropping. That is, they are supposed to protect the identity and speech of innocent Americans. Yet the Washington Post, which broke the story, says it spoke to multiple U.S. officials claiming to know what Mr. Flynn said on that call."

    I'm surmising that the key thing here in any argument of legality would be the term 'innocent Americans' (I don't know if that is the actual wording of a court order). In the timeline of events this call would have been reviewed as part of the investigation as to why Putin surprisingly didn't counter Obama's sanctions. They would probably argue 'just cause' for reviewing what Flynn said and then that it was usable because he wasn't innocent.

    BTW: If this intercept was illegal I'm very surprised the Trump administration hasn't latched onto that and trump hasn't tweeted indignation given the animosity between him and the intel community.



  • @Catogrande said in US Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:

    @booboo said in US Politics:

    Just a reminder folks. This thread was shut down because it got too heated.

    As I understand it we are conducting "extreme vetting" on posts. Don't take it personally.

    Rancid. I deleted your post. Not because I disagreed with it (I actually liked it) , but because we want to avoid avoid this thread turning into a thread about posters again.
    I would have also deleted the posts that prompted your reply as well (@Gollum , @Catogrande ).. but the thread has moved on.

    And I can assure you that many posters posts are getting removed.. you just dont see them :)

    If the post of mine that you refer to was about things being quiet on here, it was very much meant tongue in cheek, not as a snide side-swipe at anyone. Apologies if it was taken that way.

    It was quite obviously a swipe at your Welsh friends. Hope you feel ashamed :)


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