Choose both
Rather than revisiting the appointment process, I'd like to look at another problem with the current AB coaching panel that is starting to become apparent - they are too afraid to make the tough selection calls.
In my opinion they simply can't make up their minds and are too afraid to pull the trigger on picking the right team; rather they want to put all of the individuals they rate on the field and hope that their individual brilliance will get us over the line.
I'm going to call it the "can't choose, so why not both" AB selection policy.
If you have two great 7s (Cane, Savea), let's choose both, and move one of them to 8 so we can have both, even though that means we'll have a misbalanced loose forward trio.
If you have two very good 13s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 12 where they won't be as effective. Even better, let's switch them around the wrong way so that they'll both be playing worse.
If you have two very good 10s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 15, where he can influence play and we can have two playmakers, but when the shit hits the fan neither of them will step up and drive the team around.
If you have two very good Barretts who can play 15, let's choose both, and move one of them to the wing, even though that will mean that one of the form players in the country will be out of position and will playing alongside his brother who is also playing out of position.
At least back in the day, when coaches chose between Buck versus Zinzan, or Mehrts versus Spencer, we at least knew where they were going and what they were looking towards, and those decisions drove the results and decisions (by the public) about their selections. These guys are just guessing, and they are hoping that by trying to keep as many people happy for as long as possible, they will stumble across a combination of "choose boths" that will actually be a good team.
But that exposes a fallacy in their approach. By choosing both, they clearly don't have a picture of the type of game that they want to play. For those who argue (as I have), that Cane should be 7 and Savea off the bench, it is based on an idea that we lead with physical dominance and finish with speed and energy - in other words basically the same pattern that won the WC in 2015. It may well be that we have to move on from that, and need to establish a new pattern where we use Savea's tools from 7 from minute 1, in which case it's time for Cane to go and for us to front up to identifying and implementing a new pattern of play.
Either way, these coaches need to start making decisions. Just choose.
@sparky said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Are any of us that surprised that Foster's team turned out to be shite?
Not really, they aren't even playing much rugby that is great to watch (one + game excepted).
Great post, I've been stewing over this for the past few hours and I think you're right that the 'process' of appointing the new coach was just a way of appointing Foster. The key lesson from 2007 was that the best team to take forward was Ted, Smith, and Hanson. If we were looking for teams this time, it would probably be Joseph and Brown, but they didn't apply due to the 'process'.
@sparky said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Are any of us that surprised that Foster's team turned out to be shite?
No
@Gunner said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@rotated said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@rotated said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Pathetic. There is now way he can come back from this. Not sure what the options are at this point. Even if next season returns to a semi-normal schedule you pretty much have to fire him before the EOYT because you can't send a dead man walking off without an extension.
The faith of the players must already be slipping
Very hard to preach a 'high performance environment' when everyone knows they've been coached by at least a couple of better minds at lower levels.
Was this a Mark Robinson hire? Feels like something he would do....
Let’s be honest, Foster and the succession plan was locked in many moons ago.
Maybe this is the final end to a great era of success for the ABs (think Alex Ferguson and Man Utd) and Fozzie will be the catalyst that triggers a hard reset. We got 2 RWCs out of it, now the way forward is much less certain
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Gunner said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@rotated said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@rotated said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Pathetic. There is now way he can come back from this. Not sure what the options are at this point. Even if next season returns to a semi-normal schedule you pretty much have to fire him before the EOYT because you can't send a dead man walking off without an extension.
The faith of the players must already be slipping
Very hard to preach a 'high performance environment' when everyone knows they've been coached by at least a couple of better minds at lower levels.
Was this a Mark Robinson hire? Feels like something he would do....
Let’s be honest, Foster and the succession plan was locked in many moons ago.
Maybe this is the final end to a great era of success for the ABs (think Alex Ferguson and Man Utd) and Fozzie will be the catalyst that triggers a hard reset. We got 2 RWCs out of it, now the way forward is much less certain
There's no maybe about it. It's well and truly ended. Probably ended a couple of years ago tbh.
The last time we played smash it up the guts rugby against a defensive minded opposition was vs Ireland in the 2019 RWC QF. In that first half we totally eviscerated them by smashing them where they thought they were strong. Ever since then we have shown no inclination for playing a forward dominated direct style, and I can't think why not
@gt12 we look like a team being run by a coach who was a very good team man, but given the main gig is being shown to have few new ideas of his own
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
The last time we played smash it up the guts rugby against a defensive minded opposition was vs Ireland in the 2019 RWC QF. In that first half we totally eviscerated them by smashing them where they thought they were strong. Ever since then we have shown no inclination for playing a forward dominated direct style, and I can't think why not
I was tempted to make a quip about keeping our powder dry, but won't.
That really is one of the key questions to be answered isn't it?
Looking at the results of the last month, I reflect that the previous AB coach had to suggest that Foster look at Rieko vs Julian on the left flank.
I've seen enough that he won't select the best number eight in New Zealand as determined by SR A (Sotutu) which is followed up by not even benching Akira.
It's self evident that a golden period in All Black history coincided with a bunch of centurions. And for some reason we've determined a succession plan for coaches based on this. The house of cards is falling apart.
The underlying incompetence goes to NZR - a decade of astonishing success has covered over the incompetence of individuals relying on each other's resume to climb the greasy pole.
We're playing the same game plan as 2015 with significantly worse players and hoping for the same results.
Actually that's not fair. 2015 we had more than 1 way to play.
Still better players but.
This is a new low for AB rugby as far as I am concerned. A supposedly superior team playing its 5th test against an inferior side playing it's first meaningful game?
@nostrildamus
Brodie was young when he burst on the international scene, not that we necessarily have another Brodie in the pipeline but Vaai was a no name with barely any pro rugby and he has done well. I'd be trying out more players rather than hoping SB turns into a test quality player, and SW and PT find their form and don't get injuries.
Edit: super annoyed how Will Jordan has been handled.
This may be a ridiculously harsh comment, but it's worth noting that Patty T has started, and been found wanting, in two key AB losses: Soldier field and Parramatta.
My point is that I think we are looking for more than one world class lock.
I wouldn't pick one of the five starters today in a world team. We're in deep shit.
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
We're playing the same game plan as 2015 with significantly worse players and hoping for the same results.
Actually that's not fair. 2015 we had more than 1 way to play.
Still better players but.
This is a new low for AB rugby as far as I am concerned. A supposedly superior team playing its 5th test against an inferior side playing it's first meaningful game?
Nails it for me.
The ABs' culture in the last four years has become backwards, arrogant and lazy in its thinking. Innovation has been stifled. Inward looking (almost narcissistic), self-congratulatory and complacent. What you sow, you reap.
@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Had he quit yet? Cos of he had any resurrect he fucking we should've.
Still going eh bro? Bender!
@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Had he quit yet? Cos of he had any resurrect he fucking we should've.
Still going eh bro? Bender!
Fake news!
Has he quit yet? Cos of he had any respect he fucking well should've.
Fucking phone
Also massive raspberries to the usual media types trotting out the "it's only a game" and "don't take anything away from Argentina by criticising the team".
I can't think of a bigger complement than taking the loss seriously and making major changes after it.
We don't need to be spitting at racehorses again but the media is way too chummy. Can someone except the usual moaners start making some serious sustained criticism of this side. If the media did their job the Foster appointment may not have slipped through the radar.
@rotated said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
We don't need to be spitting at racehorses again but the media is way too chummy.....If the media did their job the Foster appointment may not have slipped through the radar.
Sumo Stevenson is the worst offender here. He decided a few years ago that he could get more gigs by being a toady to NZR and the AB coaches. He regularly serves up sick-inducing sycophancy. Puff piece after puff piece after puff piece. The cumulative effect is to swell up certain people's heads who should know better
We need the media to be critical friends to the AB bosses not their mates.
@sparky Not any more, he's moved on now to Spark. Much more confrontational
@Machpants yeah I thought that was a bit of a dated post. I always see him whinging about kiwi rugby and nzr now.
@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@sparky Not any more, he's moved on now to Spark. Much more confrontational
While we all need a day job, his views are often conveniently strident towards his wage payers, and strongly against any doubters of them.
He was quick to put the boot into the ‘armchair critics’ of the cards last week, but I wonder whether he’s said much about the similar views of Sir JK and his fellow panelists.
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.
He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
@canefan I see your 1998 and raise you the spectre that is 2020
"This role always comes with pressure and what I feel now is [a] massive disappointment that I haven't achieved what I wanted to achieve in the last two games," says Foster.
"It's the second week in a row that we haven't shown good composure when things weren't going our way. We got rattled again and that's something we will have to work on," says Foster.
@Donsteppa said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@sparky Not any more, he's moved on now to Spark. Much more confrontational
While we all need a day job, his views are often conveniently strident towards his wage payers, and strongly against any doubters of them.
I think this is the point that shits me most with Sumo but there are others. If you are getting paid to cover something you can't turn around and lecture others about it not being important.
He has been critical of those outside of his mates, Hansen copped it for the RWC while he wrote Read's biography for example.
I wish we could get back to the days where the most prominent voices were ex-ABs and those seriously invested in the long term health of NZ Rugby.
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
?
Perhaps we need to start acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, our players just aren't that great?
Our props are nothing above average. At lock we've had 2 great ones in 25 years. And we let one leave, and cooked the other. At loose forward we are committed to playing a 7 at 8. Our 7 is good. The rest are in the "hopefully one day" pile.
We have 1 great halfback. Our options at 10 are a rookie yet to show he can do more than run the ball at shit defences, and a veteran who is the same. In the midfield ALB is good, those around varying levels of "meh". Wings are a couple of exciting talents who aren't allowed to start there, and a young 15. At 15 we have one of those earlier mentioned 10s, and his talented but erratic little brother.
This squad needs some serious coaching.
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Perhaps we need to start acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, our players just aren't that great?
Our props are nothing above average. At lock we've had 2 great ones in 25 years. And we let one leave, and cooked the other. At loose forward we are committed to playing a 7 at 8. Our 7 is good. The rest are in the "hopefully one day" pile.
We have 1 great halfback. Our options at 10 are a rookie yet to show he can do more than run the ball at shit defences, and a veteran who is the same. In the midfield ALB is good, those around varying levels of "meh". Wings are a couple of exciting talents who aren't allowed to start there, and a young 15. At 15 we have one of those earlier mentioned 10s, and his talented but erratic little brother.
This squad needs some serious coaching.
So probably not the best time to install a guy who has never won anything, never been head coach of a test side, just so we don't rock the boat of the outgoing coach?
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
Hart was a massive failure too. Anyone could have coached the 96 and 97 ABs, they were filled with world class players. He inherited a great team in 96 but we all knew they were ageing. His problem was that he didn't build depth, he refused to give some of the younger players a go even against the tier 2 nations or in dead rubbers. When most of those guys either left at the end of 97 or became past their use by date in 98, he had to replace them with inexperienced rookies and we had our worst ever year in 98.
@akan004 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
Hart was a massive failure too. Anyone could have coached the 96 and 97 ABs, they were filled with world class players. He inherited a great team in 96 but we all knew they were ageing. His problem was that he didn't build depth, he refused to give some of the younger players a go even against the tier 2 nations or in dead rubbers. When most of those guys either left at the end of 97 or became past their used by date in 98, he had to replace them with inexperienced rookies and we had our worst ever year in 98.
You are right. The 1996/97 team was basically Laurie's 1995 finalist team + Christian Cullen
@Derpus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Im a bit irked this bloke managed a record win against us with a pretty average side. Definitely a mark against Rennie.
Australia really need to get the inferiority complex out of their skulls because man for man this side isnt that much better.
Any All Black team would have run rampant that day, you just cannot turn it over and miss tackles like they did. They showed in Wellington and Brisbane what Rennie was wanting them to do and they got results.
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@akan004 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
Hart was a massive failure too. Anyone could have coached the 96 and 97 ABs, they were filled with world class players. He inherited a great team in 96 but we all knew they were ageing. His problem was that he didn't build depth, he refused to give some of the younger players a go even against the tier 2 nations or in dead rubbers. When most of those guys either left at the end of 97 or became past their used by date in 98, he had to replace them with inexperienced rookies and we had our worst ever year in 98.
You are right. The 1996/97 team was basically Laurie's 1995 finalist team + Christian Cullen
He still picked Cullen though when from memory lots of guys were saying he should pick Osbourne.
Lumping Hart in with Foster seems extremely harsh.
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@akan004 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@MN5 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@canefan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
based on the Title...I'd say not good.
I have been willing to give him space, but many of the errors and poor decisions we are making are no different to last year, now either the players arent listening or the coaching is to blame.
I think the large portion goes on the coaching.
We made a raft of changes for B4, and look how disjointed we were, so what do we do, knee jerk into wholesale changes for this one...while I guess it was always planned that way, sometimes you need to change and adapt, react to the situation.
I wonder if some players who Fozzie has planned on putting on a plane tomorrow, will stay on, or stick to the plan?
But what it all boils down to:
Draw
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
40% Winning rate = not good enough.He's heading towards the realm of the 1998 team
Well, the difference there is John Hart was coming off two outstanding years. What has a Foster done?
Hart was a massive failure too. Anyone could have coached the 96 and 97 ABs, they were filled with world class players. He inherited a great team in 96 but we all knew they were ageing. His problem was that he didn't build depth, he refused to give some of the younger players a go even against the tier 2 nations or in dead rubbers. When most of those guys either left at the end of 97 or became past their used by date in 98, he had to replace them with inexperienced rookies and we had our worst ever year in 98.
You are right. The 1996/97 team was basically Laurie's 1995 finalist team + Christian Cullen
He still picked Cullen though when from memory lots of guys were saying he should pick Osbourne.
Lumping Hart in with Foster seems extremely harsh.
Like Shag, Hart inherited an excellent team then added a few pieces. I am happy to give him credit for coaching that team to our first series win in SA, just as Shag took GHs 2011 team and remodelled it on his way to a 2015 RWC win. Obviously Hart's 1998 drop off was bigger than Shag's stumbles towards the penultimate hurdle in Yokohama, but both had their issues in the preceding time leading up to their final RWCs in terms of installing quality young replacements for outgoing players. Both had teams capable of winning it all but fell short. Those two have more in common than either has with Fozzie.