All Blacks v Argentina - Rewatch
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24 Jordie no arms 25 Frizell illegal cleanout 28 Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29
WTF!!!!
The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
Ok, last 30 rewatch
Again, better than I expected, but SO annoying.
50-53 Some good lineout work -- Savea!! -- and two good mauls lead to try. 10 - 19.
BUT THEN After good Smith kick off return to halfway, Clarke marks poor Puma box kick, but, rather than tap and pass to BB/RM, kicks himself and gains 3m. From lineout one phase then Mo'unga is stupidly standing on 22 when ruck is 2m inside. ACTUAL offside line. In front. 10 -22 after 57.
That is very important because Pumas leaked plenty of penalties in their 22 in last 20. At 10 - 19 we take kick and one try to win. But now need two tries.
At the 60 Pumas penalised on 22. Kick means lineout 10m out. UK coverage missed lineout but we lost it?
Soon after a short kick from RM advances us to 22.
At 63 JG off for DMac and Roane to 13. Play develops and Pumas knock on. Excellent scrum and Sotutu advances to 22, good ruck and overlap (photo to follow). RM-ALB-Roane, who drops ball with Clarke unmarked and one covering Puma to beat. Sure JG would have nailed that assist. :angry_face:
Now 66 and good AB scrum. We regain possession and ALB makes good ground angling back close to ruck. Has another similar good dab shortly after RM grubber straight to Puma. Another penalty 40m out.
71 ANOTHER penalty right in front of sticks Good scrum, excellent Sotutu break and pass which if it hits Dmac is try and if converted real chance of win. But if Sotutu had kept running also probably try, but easier conversion.
73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
In 15 minutes (58-73) we had at least two try scoring opportunites, numerous penalties in Puma half (some in 22), score NOTHING, and they get to halfway ONCE and steal 3!!!!
ABs did a lot right, but if chances aren't taken matches are lost.
Still not going just to blame Foster.
Some observations:
ABs made chances and Puma gaps were exposed, despite mood of thread.
Sotutu transformed ABs in loose.
Savea good lineout option and seemed better at breakdown once Sotutu on.
AB scrum with Moody/Taylor/Laulala in front row had edge on Puma starters.
ALB footwork at 12 unlocked Puma defence. Pity JG couldn't have just swapped with him at the 68 mark!!!
DMac added some spice.
I'm backing ABs to rebound very strongly in a fortnight...
@BerniesCorner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
He use to play 13 so not technically a Cullen
What you smoking bro? That would be exactly like Cullen. Can't say I've ever heard BB played 13 though.
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
Yeah, I think what makes it worse, other than his propensity to disappear into the shadows when the going gets tough, is he just doesn't have a "basics" game to fall back on. Or if he does, he doesn't see it's required.
How often does he mess up a penalty kick for touch? The one yesterday was a fucken easy kick and was the perfect moment for the ABs to take a breath, push down the field, hold the ball and apply some pressure. And he shanks it so badly it wasn't even close. Then doesn't atone, because he can't.
@kev said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@hydro11 the running game is about creating space. We were not moving ball into space and when we did Reiko dropped it.
This a thousand times
@hydro11 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Marty said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
World has been reeling AB's in since 2015, this was sadly inevitable. Feel bad for Cane.
It's because we haven't addressed our weaknesses.
This also a thousand times
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
Yeah, I think what makes it worse, other than his propensity to disappear into the shadows when the going gets tough, is he just doesn't have a "basics" game to fall back on. Or if he does, he doesn't see it's required.
How often does he mess up a penalty kick for touch? The one yesterday was a fucken easy kick and was the perfect moment for the ABs to take a breath, push down the field, hold the ball and apply some pressure. And he shanks it so badly it wasn't even close. Then doesn't atone, because he can't.
Yeah it’s like if he can’t do something freakish / flashy he literally has no impact on the game.
No chance Foster will drop Mo;unga in the final game , it would stink of panic stations if he did and it would be a stupid decision imho. Still believe that Ritchie is the better 10 but I don't think its too much to ask that we get at least parity upfront. Collectively the backs were dissappointing but I don't think there are any material changes to be made for next game. We just have to see how they respond.
EMBARRASSING. From start to finish. As someone else said, we'd be lucky to make it out of our pool in the next WC on this evidence.
Pinetree, BJ Lochore , Fred Allen and Kel Tremain to name but a few would be absolutely disgusted with that performance. Shame on this crop of "All Blacks" you dishonour the jersey and memory of those before you who wore it with pride and earned respect worldwide.
@Jailbreak7 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
EMBARRASSING. From start to finish. As someone else said, we'd be lucky to make it out of our pool in the next WC on this evidence.
Pinetree, BJ Lochore , Fred Allen and Kel Tremain to name but a few would be absolutely disgusted with that performance. Shame on this crop of "All Blacks" you dishonour the jersey and memory of those before you who wore it with pride and earned respect worldwide.
? You aren't @sparky's twin brother are you? How well did you know the guys in bold?
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I'm backing ABs to rebound very strongly in a fortnight...
There will likely be some careers depending on it
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Two passes to score.
NOPE.
How the f**k did they not score that?
Pants performance.
@sparky said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Two passes to score.
NOPE.
How the f**k did they not score that?
Pants performance.
Lack of red arrows
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
@nzzp and when you start chasing the game you are also working under pressure, which causes hesitation in decision making, or pressure which can lead to the wrong decision being made.
@nzzp the most frustrating thing was our taps aren't fucken quick taps. They're fuckabout for half a minute while the opposition gets set taps. Makes no sense - either go or take a scrum.
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nzzp and when you start chasing the game you are also working under pressure, which causes hesitation in decision making, or pressure which can lead to the wrong decision being made.
Cascading effect. Close first half 8 behind, more composure second. Last quarter say no more than 10 behind and it's a completely difference ball game.
Lemony Snicket
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Yes, but previous scrum we all but scored. There was time. But pressure leads to [more] mistakes.
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Thought the same when I saw it. Not only had we lost lineout ball but the every scrum was just taking an age.
@DMX said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Thought the same when I saw it. Not only had we lost lineout ball but the every scrum was just taking an age.
If one added up the time taken for scrums, kicks at goal and restarts my hunch is it might add up to as much as ten minutes of the 80.
@nostrildamus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
No potential for Josh Ioane at 10 in the next couple of years?
Have you been watching M10?
A lot of talk about the attack (rightly) but the defence is really problematic at the moment. As a lot of people have said on here McLeod is really out of his depth it seems.
The defence is a big problem for 3 reasons that I can see
-
Extremely passive with the opposition constantly gaining the advantage line and winning the physical battle.
-
Discipline poor resulting in opposition gaining territory and points from penalties.
-
The defence is not generating enough turnovers - ABs thrive off of turnover ball - a quality defence can generate turnovers not just through breakdowns but through frustration and pressure but this passive defence does not do that.
Even if you look at the Eden Park performance - the Wallabies made a lot of inroads - they just had problems with their handling that let them down.
@pakman I'd say more than 10!
Was one that was about 3 1/2 mins, another was well over 2 mins...
@taniwharugby So PUJ looks really promising in his Eden Park cameo and they give him zero more chances? He's been the best 13 in the country this season.
What a clown show.
@KiwiMurph said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@taniwharugby So PUJ looks really promising in his Eden Park cameo and they give him zero more chances? He's been the best 13 in the country this season.
What a clown show.
and not like the midfield is firing , i think most people would say its a weak point...try something new?...nah
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Yep. I was screaming at the tv for them just to get farking on with it. Time was running out and there was absolutely no urgency.
@KiwiMurph we lack very little punch in the midfield atm. PUJ proved in Super Rugby he was hard to handle, why not give the kid a go.
Maybe if Foster wasn’t so conservative and actually selected the likes of PUJ and Jordan, we might not have been staring down 3 losses in a row.
Starting the likes of PUJ, Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Akira Ioane from the beginning may have been a ticket out for Fozzie.
It might have covered up his uninspired coaching.
Perhaps he could have said they were experimenting with youth.
As it is, he's played his top side, was overly Conservative, and lost.
@Canes4life said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@KiwiMurph we lack very little punch in the midfield atm. PUJ proved in Super Rugby he was hard to handle, why not give the kid a go.
Maybe if Foster wasn’t so conservative and actually selected the likes of PUJ and Jordan, we might not have been staring down 3 losses in a row.
What you say makes far too much sense for Foster to listen to.
@Frank said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
As it is, he's played his top side, was overly Conservative, and lost.
This is a really really good point. We haven't really developed players, tried new things, we've just had a steady hand on a tiller and still lost.
The challenge for Fozzie now is to take two weeks to really get a new team moving in the right direction, and performing. When you see good coaching, you see clarity from people about their roles, and what good looks like. It's taking non-star players and getting the best out of them. We have seen the exact opposite of that so far - people going further backwards the longer they spend in camp.
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The challenge for Fozzie now is to take two weeks to really get a new team moving in the right direction
TBF I dont think the team itself is too far off, its more tactics that are the worry, but yes, looking to the future is key too.
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The challenge for Fozzie now is to take two weeks to really get a new team moving in the right direction
TBF I dont think the team itself is too far off, its more tactics that are the worry, but yes, looking to the future is key too.
Tactics, execution and discipline
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that 
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
I had to stop watching after 25 minutes and once I learned the result I never bothered to watch the rest, so I'll take your word for it