Innovate or perish

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

Would've been nice to see:
Frizzel out for Robinson
Tuipulotu out for a Highlanders lock

Don't get the hate for Lomax.

Faingaanuku has been easily forgotten eh?

Surprise even to myself, but I think Christie has shown more in black than Weber.

Uh oh here comes the Hawkes posters...

@Nepias bat bay signal just went off

No

very true Bones, @nepia has to suck it up for a little bit longer yet.. looking forward to it

@bayimports said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

Would've been nice to see:
Frizzel out for Robinson
Tuipulotu out for a Highlanders lock

Don't get the hate for Lomax.

Faingaanuku has been easily forgotten eh?

Surprise even to myself, but I think Christie has shown more in black than Weber.

Uh oh here comes the Hawkes posters...

@Nepias bat bay signal just went off

No

very true Bones, @nepia has to suck it up for a little bit longer yet.. looking forward to it

I look forward to just calling you Imports later on in the year.

@crucial I like the look of that guy. Could be a replacement for Coles and Taylor and if he can been shown to be consistent sooner for Taylor. He is a big unit.

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

thought de groot dd enough to be included

Especially over Lomax

Not his fault that LH depth is good. TWM are plainly trying to work on TH depth.

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.

i have a funny feeling that there is more to this story.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.

Molehill, meet mountain

@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.

Molehill, meet mountain

Yeah. TJP is contracted now so it's not like he's going to run away. He's also not such an important player that if he gets the pip and can't work with Foster it's a big loss.
If Foster goes I'm not sure if he would be in Razor's mix.

@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:

Firstly, the forwards we produce for the All Blacks for a long time now are much leaner than their counterparts in the NH and SA. We all know we don’t produce the same amount of big men as these sides traditionally but we seem to be continuing down the leaner, mobile type of players even though rugby has changed - it’s slower, with more stoppages and it becomes harder to fatigue teams as we once used to be able to do.

great comment fella, some good things to think about. in order

firstly - we have always picked lighter, ball playing forwards rather than power forwards. It's how we have beaten SA for a long time- but at the moment, our props in particular are not ball players. There aren't many locks in world rugby that could (Brodie) sell a massive dummy inside and then gallop down the wing to score a try. Going back to '05, it was the passing in the tight forwards that made a big differnce to that side.

More recently, at 2019 RWC against SA, we got beaten up in the forwards, but had 5 minutes of magic (Reece!) and scored two critical tries. In 2015 semi against SA it was similar -w e got beaten up front, but did enough to stretch them and score enough points ... and our defence was super solid.

So, it's not a new tactic, but going the power route isn't necessarily the answer - more just getting better forwards!

Secondly, we have never solved the rush defence problem that first presented itself against The Lions.

Re-watch 2017 Lions 1 and see how we went; we went very well, with slashing diagonal runs from behind the ruck. There's space there, if you're good enough to exploit it. Arguably we should have won that series 3-0, but for a SBW brain fart and a number of AB injuries and tits for hands, culminating in allowing Poite to French us.

Thirdly, defence. Why have we not employed the same type of rush defence that we have so much trouble with?

good question - hopefully part of a wider plan rather than just 'this is what we do'.

Great post, hope it sparks some good debate

@dagrubster good post.

I do wonder though if there is much innovation left in the pro-game. Analysis and sports science now means that differences and ideas are fairly quickly countered.
The one point of difference we sometimes hold is skills and vision to play at pace. As you point out the current game management negates many of those opportunities. Less players at a tackle on the ground (or bound properly) means that there is way less opportunity to switch from defence to attack in a blink and run against a defence with gaps to exploit.
I think we have conceded the point on being ahead of the game and are simply trying to play to our strengths of speed in action and thought.
My biggest concern is that we constantly run the risk of being out muscled but then rectify it the next week. In a RWC you don't get a 'next week'. That is the biggest fix we need. Being able to play that hard forward game as soon as we need it on field, not after a lengthy de-brief.

@nzzp

Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.

I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?

It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me to wonder what type of forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?

You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.

@crucial

You will be surprised about innovation. Innovation can come from every part of a rugby group and may only result in tiny gains but add it up and it can be the difference. The America’s cup is a good example of that.

I agree about being outmuscled and then rectifying it next time around.

2 games/opponents stand out for me. First was against Australia in 2019. Record defeat and then won 38-0 a week later. It felt we had to be totally embarrassed to produce a response.

Second, was the year before aga8nst the boks. They won in Wellington after we gifted them points and generally won all the stats.

The Abs talked about a big response in the return match in SA. However, we won something like 12 rucks in the first half of that match. It was pitiful. We did eventually win but that win had alarm bells ringing loudly about our ability to respond.

As I mentioned, 3 big games in a row seemed to be beyond that AB side. Great against Ireland in the qtr final - where they felt they had someth8ng to prove. Absolute gash a week later against England

@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzzp

Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.

I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?

It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?

You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.

Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!

Just get the forwards watching this, easy.

But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.

@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:

@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzzp

Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.

I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?

It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?

You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.

Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!

Just get the forwards watching this, easy.

But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.

There is still a few. Fossie just refuses to pick them

@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.

On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.

@dagrubster front paged that one

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:

@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.

On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.

Hasn't been in form since the world cup.

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:

@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.

On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.

I think that’s the point though. TJ wasn’t playing that well when he left and he’s come back looking like an aids victim.
If he’s still the second best in the country he needs to show it

@crucial exactly, I don't care who the player is, an All Black jersey to me needs to be earned whether you've played 1 test or 100. He's been away from NZ and to me he needs to show good form before he's selected again. I said the same thing with Beaudy and Brodie but unfortunately we just don't have enough world-class players in those areas to ease them back in.

@Kirwan for sure but I think he can get back to his best if he doesn't clutter his game. Will see what happens I guess.

@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:

Then I wondered whether it’s because of our set up? Hansen’s last gig as a head coach was 2003 before taking the reins in 2012. Foster’s last gig as a head coach was 2010.

Is being an asst coaches for so long in an All Blacks environment really the best preparation for leading the All Blacks?
It seems very insular in its thinking to me that we have coaches wrapped up in a largely All Black winning bubble, for a long period of time, and then expect them to keep ahead of the rest of the world.

Great post, I actually had this thought recently, to succeed in nearly any discipline requires practice and experience doing the thing you need to improve.

I do wonder how you can be the best coach if you only coach a handful of games each year. What coaching skills do they do for the rest of the year?

I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.

In saying that Hansen was part of the AB setup for a long time and had amazing success.

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:

@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.

Foster's comments about TJP on the news last night were interesting, and a fair criticism of him. That is, they wanted to see an improvement in the speed he gets to the breakdown and his passing. We're used to Smith's service and when TJP took the field it was like the hand-break was on.

Yep Coach motivating him to show the hunger and not the hungus.

@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:

I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.

ABs will play 15 games this year, plus have time in camp outside that. They are effectively another team...

To me ABs look better placed going into round 1 TRC this year than last year.

If you look at the likely AB starting XV for Bledisloe 1 it looks stronger than the same team for Bledisloe 1 last year with the exception of loosehead prop. Compare the outside back 3, midfield, loosies, locks.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:

@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:

I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.

ABs will play 15 games this year, plus have time in camp outside that. They are effectively another team...

its not even a rep team anymore, A smith might actually play more games for the AB's this year than super games

TJP is a bit feisty, isn't he? Hopefully, that transfers onto the field. Not sure he deserves his place based on his 2020 form but he had some work-ons from the coaches to do in Japan, didn't he? He is a really good player so hopefully he can get his halfback skills up and running.

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2021:

TJP is a bit feisty, isn't he?

He's a half back - being a feisty gobby shite is part of the job descrption!

ABs have the odd psychological motivation of half the country thinking they can't be that good because Foster is coaching them.

@frank said in All Blacks 2021:

ABs have the odd psychological motivation of half the country thinking they can't be that good because Foster is coaching them.

l look forward to them 'getting up for it' every second match to prove this point.

@dagrubster Spot on. Great analysis. Best post I've read on the Fern in a wee while. Thank you!

@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:

To me ABs look better placed going into round 1 TRC this year than last year.

If you look at the likely AB starting XV for Bledisloe 1 it looks stronger than the same team for Bledisloe 1 last year with the exception of loosehead prop. Compare the outside back 3, midfield, loosies, locks.

Don't disagree, but the first 25-30 minutes of Fiji 2 show the weaknesses of this side. Our skills execution is patchy, and our lineout was terrible. I hope we show up and smash them, but if we don't go well, I suspect we'll see the same again from this side

@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:

@bones said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.

Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.

Molehill, meet mountain

It is an unusual u-turn for Foster and his "coaching" team, normally they prefer to select man-mountains and turn them into molehills.

On a more serious note, the 'let them bash us up and then we will fix it for the second game' mentality has been happening since we've been playing Deans (anybody remember him?) so I think it was even pre-Foster. But I can't tell you how the coaching has greatly changed not just since Foster took over but also when he joined, (well perhaps some position / selection decisions are more farcical) so I'd also question whether continuity has actually been good for the ABs.
But yeah, I wonder where all the strategy/ideas are, we seem to have some for key games then let the other team bash us up every second or third game...Rope-a-dope? Wrong sport to try it in the knockout part of a RWC...

As a point of difference though perhaps the forwards are as good as they can be and our real bone of contention should be the increasingly hit and miss backline? Because there we really should have enough talent. For knockout RWC games, apart from not picking Cane to start, and playing a non-specialist 6 against England in 2019 (and check out all the still-familiar names https://www.allblacks.com/news/all-blacks-team-named-for-semifinal-against-england/), was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day? From memory Jacobson was picked to be at 6 (but injured) not 8 so we didn't really have an alternative for Read, A Ioane was out of favour, in the backs R Ioane was out of favour (I think)...we perhaps don't really have depth in the forwards regardless of coaching...

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:

was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day?

Losing Luatua overseas a couple of years earlier by selecting Elliot Dixon and Jordan Taufua over him comes to mind...

In the 6 jersey post RWC 2015 behind Kaino they basically put all their eggs in the Squire basket and then couldn't land on an alternative option - they selected a whole bunch of people but for a variety of reasons (sometimes injury) these players never ended up decent game time (Evans, Akira, Taufua, Dixon, Jacobson, Frizell, L Whitelock etc etc).

Basically the same story with Read and the 8 jersey (though more understandable as he was captain).

@kiwimurph thanks for that, a name I forgot. I liked Luatua (and Vito, but perhaps he was going to leave anyway), and I think they have done ok overseas but not sure they would have made a huge difference. We are light in depth in props (who can scrum and make metres) and locking depth (here is hoping Retallick gets back up to speed, Whitelock can't do everything on his own and the miles on the clock would slow down a lesser mortal)..

Edit: and yes I never quite saw a longterm option in Squire, he was also a bit of a penalty magnet as I recall..

As far as props go one guy I would like them to try is alex fidow. Dont play him but bring him into the squad to learn of some of the best. He offers something no others do. If they/ someone can teach him how to scrum he could become a weapon.

Having Franks next year hopefully will help tho...

@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?

@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:

As far as props go one guy I would like them to try is alex fidow. Dont play him but bring him into the squad to learn of some of the best. He offers something no others do. If they/ someone can teach him how to scrum he could become a weapon.

Having Franks next year hopefully will help tho...

He would certainly need to learn how to scrum hes pretty shit at that.
I think you will find the 20 year old Crusaders props Williams and Newell have been targeted as future ABs a few years back.
They might come into contention in 2023.