Red Card Lottery
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina
b) Player sets for tackle, but opponent passes well forward and catching player starts to duck for unexpectedly imminent contact. Medium contact to chin. Red Card USA
c) Player grabs jersey of opponent burrowing into ruck legitimately, and immediately knees him in the face. Opponent goes off straight away. Yellow Card only England
d) Player gets a bit of a hospital pass and shuffles across directly into the line of an exocet missile that launches into his chin sending him flying. Not worthy of review Fiji
With all the talk about mitigation and intention, I thought the first two were yellows due to obvious mitigation. But, the sendings off impacted significantly on the matches.
The other two seemed to be intentional acts with reckless disregard for opponent safety - but on the first one the Referee used the code word 'clumsy' to influence the TMO and it was just a yellow. The commentator suggested he was stepping into the ruck - where there was another head on the ground, and he barely missed another one after the knee. The second incident was not replayed on slow-mo as far as I can recall.
I am no doubt biased in my view of what I saw, but do wonder how much card decisions depend on who the player is, which team they are from, and whether their team is playing at home. And I must question whether the TMO's are listening to the biased hometown commentary prior to the referral.
I wonder what it would take for an England captain to be red-carded at Twickenham, or the Fijian captain in front of a partisan audience?
What do Ferners think? In my eyes this demands a rethink of the 20 minute red card, as I think the referees make plenty of judgement errors because the stakes are too high - and they don't want to make a call that would see them pilloried if judged unwarranted. That tends to favour home teams.
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
What do Ferners think? In my eyes this demands a rethink of the 20 minute red card, as I think the referees make plenty of judgement errors because the stakes are too high - and they don't want to make a call that would see them pilloried if judged unwarranted. That tends to favour home teams.
If we're dishing out RC like candy (which is the intent), then a 20 min card + a heavy suspension seems a lot better.
Honestly, though, the drum I keep beating is consistency. You just want to know that the line will be broadly consistent, and then everyone can adapt their risk/reward.
If there is truly a drive to mitigate head contact (and there should be), then there should be responsibility on tacklers to stay low (nipple line is suggested; penalty for higher tackles), and on tacklers to stay high (not to bend into contact). The corollary would be that teammates who clean out and connect with heads of their own team should also be penalised/carded.
The challenge is that rugby is a deeply physical, confrontational and fluid sport. It's what makes it worth watching. But the consistency is a massive headache as you say
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.
OK I’ll play
Did you even watch the Wales v Argentina match?
Mallia (15, Argentina) puts up a perfectly weighted kick which allowed him to cover the ground to contest for the ball when it landed.
Hardy (9, Wales) positioned himself perfectly to field the kick, bringing the ball into his breadbasket and making the catch.
In the act of catching the ball Hardy bent his knees and set his heels to ensure a good catch and brace himself for imminent impact.
So far, textbook from both players.
Mallia was never in position to contest for the ball in the air so set himself for the front on tackle of Hardy, which he timed perfectly.
Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
On first impact, Mallia’s head made contact with Hardy’s head.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
If first impact from the tackler is on the ball carrier’s head and there are no mitigating circumstances, then it’s a straight red.
Both players are vertically challenged and Hardy barely dropped whole body position in the act of catching the ball and stealing himself for impact.
No mitigating circumstances, referee had no choice but to show red.
Action starts around 01:50
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
The Fiji one is much worse. Can't believe they didn't look again - late-ish, and right in the head.
Argie tackle was clumsy, but he had time to go lower and should have. Unlucky you'd say, and a good example of a 20 min red being the right call.
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
Dead set red
@mikethesnow yep I concede that one. Thanks. Switched on to match after the incident and thought I saw it played from an angle where Mallia looked up as if wanting to catch ball then dipped his head very late. But that replay shows exactly as you say. He was not high because he was still trying to catch He had time to lower himself and the impact point so red. But I still think that a 20 minute red is a fairer outcome for bad judgement as distinct to malicious foul play.
@mikethesnow said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
I hate being pedantic but which is it?
this is where get annoyed, yes, punish contact with the head, of course...but, if the correct technique (low, head down to the side etc) means the tackler cant keep track of all the variables throughout the whole movement then that is a mitigating factor for me
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it...should he watch for the player...in which point hes unlikely to catch the ball and so could be argued isn't seriously competing for it
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@mikethesnow said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
I hate being pedantic but which is it?
this is where get annoyed, yes, punish contact with the head, of course...but, if the correct technique (low, head down to the side etc) means the tackler cant keep track of all the variables throughout the whole movement then that is a mitigating factor for me
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it...should he watch for the player...in which point hes unlikely to catch the ball and so could be argued isn't seriously competing for it
Both
Correct tackling technique applied to an incorrect area of the ball carrier
But you knew that
He absolutely smashed Hardy but unfortunately for him, he aimed too high
Big reward, big risk tackle
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
There was a call. It was “boomfa”.
Now you know why we need 20minute RCs for commentators
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it
You answered yourself in the very same post, but surely you can see how reckless that is?
@bones my point is it can be a circular argument
if the player isn't watching the ball and jumps, competes, but doesn't get it...its quite likely he'll get done for not having a realistic chance of regathering...how could he...but if he never takes his eye of the ball...its hard to know where other players are...do he could go up...but the only thing stopping him getting it is another player...he didn't know about because he was watching the ball
In this case, hes tried to watch both and decided to tackle rather than go for the ball, even drops into the tackle, what he hasn't seen is the wales player drop slightly upon catching and so they go head to head to shoulder to shoulder
yes, starting point is RED but for me there are mitigating circumstances
You can see the ground covered and both go from standing to crouched and a second doesn't pass
I know, its just me, i hate seeing these red cards where in my mind there is no malice past past trying to make the perfectly timed tackle, i see it very different to the DMac tackle for example where hes lined him up from a mile away, and even then on first watching i tought it was just a huge hit, only on the reply did i click the hit to the head
@kiwiwomble you can't just decide you're going to ignore players, that's reckless and pretty silly in a game where there's 29 other players. "He only had eyes for the ball" is a stupid argument that doesn't apply to any other part of rugby.
@bones you do understand what im saying though, we also hear people say, if theyre not watching the ball that they cant have had a realistic chance of regathering. and the line between the two is razor thin and were handing out the ultimate punishment for it
In this case i think he times almost everything perfectly, its in less than a second both players drop resulting in an accidental (in my eyes) contact to the head, which would mitigate things
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@bones you do understand what im saying though, we also hear people say, if theyre not watching the ball that they cant have had a realistic chance of regathering. and the line between the two is razor thin and were handing out the ultimate punishment for it
In this case i think he times almost everything perfectly, its in less than a second both players drop resulting in an accidental (in my eyes) contact to the head, which would mitigate things
Am I the only one here with peripheral vision? It's a pretty disingenuous phrase if you ask me - you're never "just watching the ball". That's what makes it even worse for me.
@bones peripheral vision s much better side to side than up and down
nearly a third smaller, so when tracking a ball almost directly above you your vision whats directly in front of you is going to be less than ideal, combined with the tiny timeframes were talking about...it just seems harsh to say there were no mitigating factors, but im happy to accept that's just me
I dont want punishments to be as big a part of the game as they currently are, even penalties. I was always taught that penalties/YC/RC were degrees of punishment for deliberate cheating or foul play...not negative results of direct competition for the ball....but as above, i may well have to accept i am in the minority
@kiwiwomble they turned their head sideways, result! You can see the tongue firmly in the cheek even.
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@bones my point is it can be a circular argument
if the player isn't watching the ball and jumps, competes, but doesn't get it...its quite likely he'll get done for not having a realistic chance of regathering...how could he...but if he never takes his eye of the ball...its hard to know where other players are...do he could go up...but the only thing stopping him getting it is another player...he didn't know about because he was watching the ball
In this case, hes tried to watch both and decided to tackle rather than go for the ball, even drops into the tackle, what he hasn't seen is the wales player drop slightly upon catching and so they go head to head to shoulder to shoulder
yes, starting point is RED but for me there are mitigating circumstances
You can see the ground covered and both go from standing to crouched and a second doesn't pass
I know, its just me, i hate seeing these red cards where in my mind there is no malice past past trying to make the perfectly timed tackle, i see it very different to the DMac tackle for example where hes lined him up from a mile away, and even then on first watching i tought it was just a huge hit, only on the reply did i click the hit to the head
Well there's a shock, Kieran Hardy is 1.85m tall (I was expecting him to be much shorter)
So even with a 30cm loss in height for knee bend and shoulder slouch and 20cm for ground to over the boot height, that still leaves a 1.35m target zone.
Great tackling technique, poor execution.
First contact to ball carrier's head.
Clear red.
Aim lower, be more accurate.
@mariner4life said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
There it is. Layed out. Korobeti's is not even close to a red. Not even on the same ball park.
Rugby has lost its fucking mind
He was too high and as a result ended up shoulder to head. I would've probably sided with yellow, but look, if we want players to be more careful and they're not learning, red card makes sense.
Think they need to bring in the 20 minute red card and player is replaced though.
@bones said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@mariner4life said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
There it is. Layed out. Korobeti's is not even close to a red. Not even on the same ball park.
Rugby has lost its fucking mind
He was too high and as a result ended up shoulder to head. I would've probably sided with yellow, but look, if we want players to be more careful and they're not learning, red card makes sense.
Think they need to bring in the 20 minute red card and player is replaced though.
Our friends in the NH, namely the poms and I think the Scots voted down the 20 minute red card. It ain’t happening.
@bones said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@mariner4life said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
There it is. Layed out. Korobeti's is not even close to a red. Not even on the same ball park.
Rugby has lost its fucking mind
He was too high and as a result ended up shoulder to head. I would've probably sided with yellow, but look, if we want players to be more careful and they're not learning, red card makes sense.
Think they need to bring in the 20 minute red card and player is replaced though.
Totally agree.
I think 99% of people on here care greatly for player safety, and 80%+ want some movement away from reds meaning 14-man rugby after a non-malicious incident.
But I can't understand why people are choosing this incident as the hill to die on to make theit point. This isn't him in the defensive line, squaring up to make a hit and having a player adjust his height at the last minute to make incidental contact. This is a bloke running 25m at pace to try and make a huge hit, and he doesn't get nearly low enough. He chose his height, and it was blatantly wrong.
It's also a fucking shoulder charge which nobody seems to care about. His arm is pointing down, not wrapping around.
Shit tackle, right result.
I believe the shot was high and dangerous and he had plenty of time to aim lower. The issue is the impact a red usually has on the game and spectacle. Credit to Australia here but imagine WC Semi, full strength French side and it would likely be a different result.
I personally would prefer a red to be 10 minutes and not replaced. Reds used to be very rare and for when you bit off another players ear. Now we seem to have reds every weekend.
It is a team sport and one players brain fart or poor technique can fuck it for everyone. I just hope common sense prevails at some point.
@voodoo said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@bones said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@mariner4life said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
There it is. Layed out. Korobeti's is not even close to a red. Not even on the same ball park.
Rugby has lost its fucking mind
He was too high and as a result ended up shoulder to head. I would've probably sided with yellow, but look, if we want players to be more careful and they're not learning, red card makes sense.
Think they need to bring in the 20 minute red card and player is replaced though.
Totally agree.
I think 99% of people on here care greatly for player safety, and 80%+ want some movement away from reds meaning 14-man rugby after a non-malicious incident.
But I can't understand why people are choosing this incident as the hill to die on to make theit point. This isn't him in the defensive line, squaring up to make a hit and having a player adjust his height at the last minute to make incidental contact. This is a bloke running 25m at pace to try and make a huge hit, and he doesn't get nearly low enough. He chose his height, and it was blatantly wrong.
It's also a fucking shoulder charge which nobody seems to care about. His arm is pointing down, not wrapping around.
Shit tackle, right result.
If you pause at the right spot (shows 4 seconds but probably just a frame) you can see that he also drove up. Pretty hard to convince anyone that he wasn't taking a high risk approach that came off wrong when you come in that hard and drive up enough to lift the ball carrier off their feet.
I'm a not sure how I feel about the Koirebete hit. It seems identical to the red in in the Wales/Arg game. In both cases I would lean towards yellow using a drop in body height as mitigation/excuse. On the other hand, in both cases the tackler chose to make huge hit which they were unable to control, so I don't have much sympathy for either tackler. The 20min red would have been the right result in both cases, but unfortunately that was voted down.
A bigger problem is the inconsistency of what is being picked up by the referee and TMO. After the SA A v Lions game Gatland in a presser tried to argue that Faf should have seen red for his hit on Wyn Jones. Erasmus fired back on Twitter raising a couple of hits that were not reviewed (
@voodoo yeah I find this one quite similar to the Ofa red card. Far from malicious and not exactly aimed at the head - but just aimed too high and dangerous as a result. Like I said for the Ofa one - if MK had aimed at the midriff instead of the shoulder, the highlight would be on smashed em bro.
@jc said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@kirwan An Orange card? ?
We talked about the amber card years back I seem to remember