Nostrildamus with Hindsight

After reading this thread, I have the impression that the All Blacks were poor because of Bridge's lack of talent. This is not the true problem IMO. The forwards were outgunned for most of the game and this is the most worrying fact.

@nta What an astute comment. Would only NZ rugby fans listen. The 2004-15 era was pretty special in terms of talent, including a coach of significant mana in Graham Henry. Great eras don’t last forever. And many of the Big Names have moved on. There’ll be another golden era, undoubtedly. But you can’t force it. And even with a handful of very talented (if ageing) individuals like Coles, Retallick, Whitelock, Aaron Smith and BB, I doubt it will come under this coaching panel, who look, sound and act like a stopgap to me.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

When does the citing window close? 24 hours from full time?

Obviously I think its better for the game next week if Botia plays, but I imagine if it was an AB that had done that...

Soc med meltdown

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@yeetyaah said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

We just lack physicality. Don't think we took the threat serious enough and took the piss with the starting lineup a bit.

In saying that we should still be playing better than this shit.we’re is a game plan or progression from last year .soft forward effort let’s hope COVID keeps SA out of the RC .

Yeah. Unbeatable.

No the Lions,England a full strength French team can beat SA we could under different coaches.
But not playing like we have last year and that passive shit forward performance we put out against Fiji.
Yes Sack the idiot coaches.

I can sort of accept a 'passive' performance because that is an attitude thing and players aren't always going to play that way. In an ideal world players would be up for every game but that is not humanly possible.

Yet another thing they said they were trying to fix.

@nta said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nta Problem is we aren't seeing any improvement in certain areas but instead history repeating itself every season (basically an extension of the Foster-led Chiefs). In contrast, you can see Rennie's influence on the Wobs. The harder-edged approach to forward play against the French (basically an extension of the niggly, hard-nosed back-to-back champion Chiefs side).

And yes a lot of that could be attributed to the coach. I know there is a lot of angst around the perceived nepotism Foster's appointment generates.

But how much do you attribute to the players? I'm sure they're all out there trying their best, but maybe it is just that the group has limits and no amount of coaching will address it because they simply haven't gone through enough pain in losing. These guys following your all-timers have been playing in an environment where they got an artificial leg-up from the mere presence of those individuals, and while you're winning games against Australia by 40-blot and recovering enough to trounce a fired-up Fiji, that is unlikely to change.

What you say makes sense but team selections go back to the coaching team.
JB at fullback is twice or thrice as good as JB at wing (and looks far faster).
The AB coaches refuse to play their best 6s (in their right positions) and send the next best 7 overseas.
They don't choose the best remaining props when the regulars are injured.
They play their C team against Fiji A/B(?) and their B team against Tonga C.
They have two team moves a game and then let everything get ragged.
They haven't developed enough depth and combinations (especially combinations, especially midfield, Ennor at centre for godsakes? One of the toughest positions for a young guy who makes Kahui look indestructible. And really he's a wing).
The AB coaching team enjoy losing because they only know how to fix things for the second (or third) game.
Recently Argentina is better, Ireland is stronger, Fiji have been coached to be more disciplined with less lapses and brain farts (Cotter for ABs forward coach).
While the ABs might be weaker, they still have good players and the team should be stronger than its parts. We are struggling to put away teams who meet each other in quarantine and who play across Europe while NZ-based players should know each other down to their shoelaces by now.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nzzp I don't think Bridge is out of form, he is doing what he has always done. He has never been one to beat multiple defenders.

Last night he was a key component to the first try with a snappy midfield pass, and the try he scored he initiated the forward momentum with a good run from a lineout.

I really disagree with this fallacy that you and Marshall insist on. He was a key component in much the same way as pretty much any other back in the squad could have been if playing the same role. He also was a key component on a couple of other occasions where he was playing the same role but shat his daks when he saw a defender running at him and died with the ball.

He hit the line and passed before he got tackled, this isn't isn't something unique to Bridge's skill set. At least Rieko's ones that didn't pan out he actually got the ball away and didn't just turn turtle.

Don't disagree with you, I know other backs could have made the same contribution. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying I am happy he is our wing.

That post was more a response to the claim Bridge is out of form. I think he is playing to the standard he has been playing for the Crusaders since he learnt how to catch a high ball (remember how bad he was against the BILs?).

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nta Problem is we aren't seeing any improvement in certain areas but instead history repeating itself every season (basically an extension of the Foster-led Chiefs). In contrast, you can see Rennie's influence on the Wobs. The harder-edged approach to forward play against the French (basically an extension of the niggly, hard-nosed back-to-back champion Chiefs side).

If we are putting the same yardstick that some on here have put on the ABs performance, from my view the Aussie forwards were bullied for a significant period of that first test against a 2nd or even 3rd rate French pack.

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

I haven’t read the thread yet but when I do I hope to see plenty of comments wondering why our loose forwards didn’t act as a unit.

I'm reading through the thread now.

Sotutu was busy but at the wrong places.

And taking the wrong options, for example that scrum right on HT. BB would have strolled in if he had passed. He also didn't pass to an unmarked AB in the 2nd half.

@act-crusader Yes, quite true but there was an obvious shift in the approach of the Wob forwards and they did gain some meters up fat man's ally. Still a work in progress of course but at least you see some kind of steps in the right direction (according to my humble opinion anyway).
My question to you is have we seen anything different from the ABs forwards since the Lions Tour?

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader Yes, quite true but there was an obvious shift in the approach of the Wob forwards and they did gain some meters up fat man's ally. Still a work in progress of course but at least you see some kind of steps in the right direction (according to my humble opinion anyway).
My question to you is have we seen anything different from the ABs forwards since the Lions Tour?

Um No. In 2021 we have only the last two matches to go on, but so far I have not seen the dominance or physicality that I would like from our pack.
We seem predictable and too often have been exposed for lack of application and muscle, and dare I say it inventiveness.
Is Tupou Vai'i injured? Out of favour? We need to have more of a succession plan in place for the imminent departure of Retallick who looked old and on the back foot. We've already let Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier slip out of our grasp, don't want any more to seek the yen.
Not enough of the roll up the sleeves and do the hard yards attitude shown. I would prefer a more energetic look at the future and at least give players like Tupou Vai;i, Tom Robinson and Ah Kuoi a decent shot. We need more grunt, more muscle in the front 5 especially. Fiji have given us a taste of what is achievable via players and coaches experiencing a different structure and environment in the NH. We need to be ready - not caught in the headlights and prepared for combat on an altogether different level.

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

All those years after they were gone we had to settle for Jack, Williams and that other bloke…..McCaw or whatever his name was. Dark times.

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

All those years after they were gone we had to settle for Jack, Williams and that other bloke…..McCaw or whatever his name was. Dark times.

At least we had Blackadder and Newby to offset it.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

I have a big glass of go fuck yourself waiting for you here bro.

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

Sad to see the end of Jack Kronfeld.

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

Don’t forget Sean Broomhall.

To be fair James Blackie never got capped.

None of them were ever gonna usurp Roger McCaw for the top job though.

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

Don’t forget Sean Broomhall.

The fuck are you talking about? No such person.

Is John Bridge the new Steve Hamilton?

@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Is John Bridge the new Steve Hamilton?

I see more Cameron Ralph in the way he plays……

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

Don’t forget Sean Broomhall.

The fuck are you talking about? No such person.

You would know. You never forget a name.

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Josh’s brother? ?

A lot of depth at open side back then particularly with guys like Sam Herring and Ben Harding.

Mikey Holah went ok

Craig Masoe and Chris Newby got capped too. Great times.

Don’t forget Sean Broomhall.

The fuck are you talking about? No such person.

You would know. You never forget a name.

Practice makes perfect

Fern Gold.

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Of our locks in general play, apart from Whitelock, and a rusty, weaker Retallick, there is little depth. I think they need to try, um, maybe Tom Robinson?

Robinson had one SR game at lock back in 2020. This year the Blues have given up using him to cover lock. I don't think he spent a second at lock this year.
The one time the Blues did use a lock/blindside it was actually Goodhue

He could do the job at lineout. I suspect the scrum would be significantly weakened.

Just regarding the above about the Golden Era that is passed etc., I think most here acknowledge that we’re unlikely to have a 2015 standard team any time soon. What’s pissing people off is what appears to be the distinct lack of focus on something that has been an alarming weakness for a few years now, i.e. physicality or lack thereof. Neither the team last year nor the one on Saturday looked like they were geared towards or focussed on taking out the other team at the collisions. The opposite in fact. It’s almost like we’ve gone full circle back to the Mitchell era where it was all about quick ball and getting it wide and the forwards were more a conduit for the backs rather than a weapon in themselves and indeed the most important one if the game becomes an arm wrestle. We might not have McCaws or Carters anymore but we certainly have the players to smash teams up front. It’s incredibly frustrating because I reckon it’s been a matter of concern from as early as that Argie game in 2016. I remember them causing havoc around the rucks. Making metres at will. Thankfully teams didn’t have the skill or the lungs to sustain that kind of game back then but now they most certainly do and we will be looking at more Foster type records if nothing is done about it.

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nta Problem is we aren't seeing any improvement in certain areas but instead history repeating itself every season (basically an extension of the Foster-led Chiefs). In contrast, you can see Rennie's influence on the Wobs. The harder-edged approach to forward play against the French (basically an extension of the niggly, hard-nosed back-to-back champion Chiefs side).

It would be interesting if someone with more search skills than me, ie not lazy, dug up old Chiefs threads from the Foster era. My memory tells me the complaints we are hearing now are pretty much the same complaints we were hearing then.

True , i , for one am outraged at the absence of our great captain from the BOP; Sam Cane. He's trying to drive him off shore like he did Colin Bourke.

Right, now we should get an exact match.

@duluth thanks

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji: Retallick who looked old and on the back foot.

I disagree on Retallick a little, I thought he looked on the front foot but yes inaccurate and was weaker, in the first half, and then got struck on the head (I think) and wasn't the same afterwards but I don't see anywhere if he was seriously injured. They did strip the ball from him but he did have one of his own.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Nope because those two had more available top-notch rivals in those positions.
We had three opensides down and we have locking depth equivalent to Australia in the bad days!

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

I had to rewatch all of it just now.
I was a bit hard on SF, he was good in the lineouts but just not very dynamic and slow in places. Him and Patty T were noticeably absent on my screen from some important rucks. We were so crappy in protecting the breakdown, Fiji had a field day.
Of our locks in general play, apart from Whitelock, and a rusty, weaker Retallick, there is little depth. I think they need to try, um, maybe Tom Robinson?
I thought Jacobson was good and defensively he certainly was (not on long enough for attack) but for the reserves I only just noticed now how important Lomax was for the mauls, he and De Groot stayed close to Coles and looked far more cohesive, energetic and stubborn compared to the starting front row. Taylor wasn't so bad on second viewing, he tried, but it was just him and Retallick of the tight 5 with any sort of application. I'm worried about Laulala, he waddled around like a chunky panda. The replacement props looked far superior in general play, Laulala at least should be a senior player now.
Very exciting to see Dmac Ioane and Jordan link near the end, sheer speed and class even if the movement was stopped and Ioane had some nice passes but doesn't seem to link that well to his 12. Midfield a work in progress I feel.
BB: had a fine game I thought, except someone else needs to kick the conversions.
Bridge and Reece- well both tried, and Reece had his run, but they were physically outmatched and Bridge had a really bad read on that Fijian try, nice linking, but why is he doing that and not the midfield?
Captaincy, the ABs stiffened noticeably when Coles and Whitelock were on the field.
We were probably lucky the Fijian backline weren't as good as their big forwards, who tired in the last 10. But didn't they play well with 14 men!

@nostrildamus front paged this one too (fyi @Duluth )

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@jailbreak7 said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Cowley-Tuioti and Lachlan Boshier

This is akin to lamenting the loss of Paul Tito and James Blackie.

Nope because those two had more available top-notch rivals in those positions.
We had three opensides down and we have locking depth equivalent to Australia in the bad days!

Oh ok yeah you're spot on. GCT and Boshier going overseas are the nails in Foster's coffin, we can't afford to lose absolute world class superstars like that in the ABs, how ever can we replace them?

Oh hang on, they aren't even the best players in their position at their super franchise? But but....

And it's a really wide coffin because Foster is fat, hur hur hur

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Oh ok yeah you're spot on. GCT and Boshier going overseas are the nails in Foster's coffin,

Wow. That''s not what I said, man. On the smelling salts again?

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Oh ok yeah you're spot on. GCT and Boshier going overseas are the nails in Foster's coffin,

Wow. That''s not what I said, man. On the smelling salts again?

Are you jailbreak?

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji:

Oh ok yeah you're spot on. GCT and Boshier going overseas are the nails in Foster's coffin,

Wow. That''s not what I said, man. On the smelling salts again?

Are you jailbreak?

nope but you replied to me.