Boks will get better

@African-Monkey said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@mariner4life They're easy targets thats why.

As I said earlier, we're just poorly coached with a well outdated gameplan. Can't say anyone individually had a howler (apart from Coles).

Easy targets like Scooter, Mo’unga, Havili, Fainga’anuku aye… ?

I agree that overall there weren’t many howlers, some mistakes and turnovers more costly than others, but there was effort and some good play. I can’t say I ever thought in the second half we were going to create enough to win the test, but just wanted to see some footy played. Far few good moments.

Any chance the Bok gets off with no suspension? Is there some rule where you can challenge someone in the air with no intention of catching the ball and knock them onto their neck/head but it's considered a 'soak challenge' so should really have been play on.

@Toddy said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

Any chance the Bok gets off with no suspension? Is there some rule where you can challenge someone in the air with no intention of catching the ball and knock them onto their neck/head but it's considered a 'soak challenge' so should really have been play on.

The biggest problem for the Bok winger is that he hit BB who was in the air and he was still on the ground. Never had a chance of having an in the air contest.

@Toddy said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

Any chance the Bok gets off with no suspension? Is there some rule where you can challenge someone in the air with no intention of catching the ball and knock them onto their neck/head but it's considered a 'soak challenge' so should really have been play on.

Those type of incidents are some of the worst. Even more so than an accidental high shot, the chaser is closing in on an opponent in a vulnerable position who doesn't see them coming. Just like tunnelling in basketball it is extremely dangerous. That guy should get a long suspension, BB could have got a life suspension from using his body from the head down

@ACT-Crusader I think everyone on here is guilty of provincial bias towards a team they love/hate lol, some worse than others haha.

@Duluth and he can kick!

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@kev said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@stodders you have to win the contact.

I thought ABs did that at times. Problem was, ABs committed too many men to breakdown, so after 2 or 3 phases they were running out of players and Boks were picking them off.

ABs body angles at clearout aren't good enough to clear bodies, so it is taking an extra man to effect it. It doesn't help that refs are allowing players to slow ball down whilst clearly not supporting their bodyweight, but hey, c'est la vie.

What seems to be issue is that oppo tacklers good at impeding ball placement. Then second man patient and gets the latch. Our cleaners aren’t taking him out.

Noticed Ardie several times looking to do same, but all but once Boks body smashed into him, in some cases arguably before he’d joined the ruck.

Yeah, but Marx has awful technique and gets away with it. It's supposed to be exactly what they're looking for to penalise - hands on the floor first, hips well in front of feet, knees leaning on the player on the ground, taking advantage of his own players impeding cleaners and ball placement. It literally ticks all the fucking boxes, almost everytime and then that fluffybunny Gardiner has the gall to penalise Scooter for offside on the charge down and Cane for being off his feet despite never being off his feet.

He's lined himself up nicely for a RWC final gig.

"We're pretty excited about the next challenge of playing at Ellis Park for a trophy."

The guy seems to dine out on losses in search of the next thrill.

@Billy-Tell said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

"We're pretty excited about the next challenge of playing at Ellis Park for a trophy."

The guy seems to dine out on losses in search of the next thrill.

Argentina will fancy their chances. Oz too

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Tim But then after that, he came right and put the SA prop under pressure. Is it a concentration thing?

First scrum with this AB pack, and that Bok pack with Angus’s calling, is always likely to cause initial scrum instability. Many good refs make allowances.

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Tim But then after that, he came right and put the SA prop under pressure. Is it a concentration thing?

First scrum with this AB pack, and that Bok pack with Angus’s calling, is always likely to cause initial scrum instability. Many good refs make allowances.

Just rewatching. I'd be interested in @NTA view, but it looked to me as though Kitshoff pulled that down.

In which case, file with kickable penalty against PSDT for non-release on first Marx jackal, and non-penalty for Cane jackal which AG missed and penalised him for fishing on deck.

@Bones said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@kev said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@stodders you have to win the contact.

I thought ABs did that at times. Problem was, ABs committed too many men to breakdown, so after 2 or 3 phases they were running out of players and Boks were picking them off.

ABs body angles at clearout aren't good enough to clear bodies, so it is taking an extra man to effect it. It doesn't help that refs are allowing players to slow ball down whilst clearly not supporting their bodyweight, but hey, c'est la vie.

What seems to be issue is that oppo tacklers good at impeding ball placement. Then second man patient and gets the latch. Our cleaners aren’t taking him out.

Noticed Ardie several times looking to do same, but all but once Boks body smashed into him, in some cases arguably before he’d joined the ruck.

Yeah, but Marx has awful technique and gets away with it. It's supposed to be exactly what they're looking for to penalise - hands on the floor first, hips well in front of feet, knees leaning on the player on the ground, taking advantage of his own players impeding cleaners and ball placement. It literally ticks all the fucking boxes, almost everytime and then that fluffybunny Gardiner has the gall to penalise Scooter for offside on the charge down and Cane for being off his feet despite never being off his feet.

He's lined himself up nicely for a RWC final gig.

First penalty PSDT was all over carrier like cheap Italian suit. No release, clear or otherwise!

@pakman and if we are going relitigate the entire game, kickable penalty against Barret for the intercept and no kickable penalty against De Allende as Smith was offside first.

Gardner wasnt perfect, but hebis not reason the game wasnt even close

@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman and if we are going relitigate the entire game, kickable penalty against Barret for the intercept and no kickable penalty against De Allende as Smith was offside first.

Gardner wasnt perfect, but hebis not reason the game wasnt even close

Yep. Sometimes certain penalties can arrest momentum. But on the whole Gardener was good (apart from his non-calling of the Bok fliers which is just a blight on the game). But that wasn't the case yesterday. ABs were not even close to a contentious decision being a game changer.

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Tim But then after that, he came right and put the SA prop under pressure. Is it a concentration thing?

First scrum with this AB pack, and that Bok pack with Angus’s calling, is always likely to cause initial scrum instability. Many good refs make allowances.

Just rewatching. I'd be interested in @NTA view, but it looked to me as though Kitshoff pulled that down.

In which case, file with kickable penalty against PSDT for non-release on first Marx jackal, and non-penalty for Cane jackal which AG missed and penalised him for fishing on deck.

Kitschoff was a sub in minute 39.

Nyakane was up against Ta'avao. I thought Nyakane was clever...he pulled back ever so slightly because Ta'avao had overstretched on the engage. Only one way Ta'avao was going. Good lesson for him.

@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Tim But then after that, he came right and put the SA prop under pressure. Is it a concentration thing?

First scrum with this AB pack, and that Bok pack with Angus’s calling, is always likely to cause initial scrum instability. Many good refs make allowances.

Just rewatching. I'd be interested in @NTA view, but it looked to me as though Kitshoff pulled that down.

In which case, file with kickable penalty against PSDT for non-release on first Marx jackal, and non-penalty for Cane jackal which AG missed and penalised him for fishing on deck.

Kitschoff was a sub in minute 39.

Nyakane was up against Ta'avao. I thought Nyakane was clever...he pulled back ever so slightly because Ta'avao had overstretched on the engage. Only one way Ta'avao was going. Good lesson for him.

Nyakane played Ta'avao, sure. But the penalty I'm talking about in second half.

Doesn't change the fact that we suck balls right now. This must be the worst AB team in memory in my lifetime

@SidBarret said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman and if we are going relitigate the entire game, kickable penalty against Barret for the intercept and no kickable penalty against De Allende as Smith was offside first.

Gardner wasnt perfect, but hebis not reason the game wasnt even close

I disagree on first, but De Allende did seem harsh.

But the first Marx jackal ought to have been a nailed on 3 for ABs. At 7-3 after 20 it's a different ball game.

@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

Doesn't change the fact that we suck balls right now. This must be the worst AB team in memory in my lifetime

There seems to be no sense of calm belief. But I've got to feel sorry for Fozzie, oddly enough.

At 55 we're getting on top, Havilli kicks us 5m out. Cue Frizell inability to understand English, albeit Strine, and then Rieko unforced Hail Mary which Pollard smartly converts to another 3.

Hard to come back after that!

EDIT: Then Coles drops 5m out, then crooked throw.

@SidBarret

I am replying to myself but whatever.

I watched the game secomd time and want to amend some of my earlier comments.

The maul was actually pretty good, we just didnt get any lineouts within strike range.

But our attack is even worse than i thought at first. In the first 20 we got around all black defense three times but kinda drifted into touch twice and De Allende failed to pass when we had an easy two on one.

We had further two shots in the 22, but was way to predictable with carries off nine. The All Blacks did well to fold round, but we didnt make them having to make any hard decisions. Very dissappointing that there isnt any evidence of improvement.

Its pretty clear that SA went into their shell in the second half. I understand the call, but they could have gone for the throat.

@pakman from 55 to about 70 was some of the worst rugby youd see at thos level

One very marked difference between the breakdown work of the teams.

Boks always have a player beside or directly behind carrier in close stuff. As soon as Bok is tackled, ‘shadow’ shoots in over him and crouches down over him supporting weight with hands. Tackler then places ball back between shadow’s legs. AG seemed to be comfortable so long as shadow didn’t put knee on ground. Very effective method of sealing off.

We seem to follow more traditional cleaning strategy. But a couple of times Bok tackler managed to roll out our side of ruck leaving nowhere for cleaners to put feet. Noticed Irish also did that. AG also didn’t seem bothered.

I’m not clear off top of my head if the legalities!?

@pakman and @SidBarret that period was largely due to something that hasn’t been mentioned much - the massive lift in defensive intensity from the boks in this test.

Barrett has a PSDT tattoo from the first three minutes. And that intensity lifted again in the 3rd quarter.

Yes the ABs looked lost but better versions of AB have also looked lost in the face of that sort of onslaught.

But the bok attack is woeful. You see crisper passing, more accurate attack patterns and better support lines at every SA high school game.

Huge part of it is we lack a linking loosie. But we also over rely on the maul and scrum to generate points. That’s fine when Pollard is kicking well. But we should’ve been 20 points clear at half.

@Smuts re the third quarter

Nah, no defense can draw the ab defence off side at the lineout, get them to close gap so egregiously that it is an immediate frre kick or make Coles to throw the ball in at 45 degree angle

@Smuts we switched to our box kicking strategy after the try.

@pakman

You can look at individual pieces of play as much as you want, but the reality is the Boks played basic rugby pretty well. They didn’t have to be that good and were never looking like losing. As many decisions that went against NZ, there were many that went against SA.

This was never a close game and not decided by officiating by a looong way. Without the Boks playing that well

@Catogrande said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman

You can look at individual pieces of play as much as you want, but the reality is the Boks played basic rugby pretty well. They didn’t have to be that good and were never looking like losing. As many decisions that went against NZ, there were many that went against SA.

This was never a close game and not decided by officiating by a looong way. Without the Boks playing that well

And that's the thing. Bok losses in SA to NZ were generally because NZ stepped up and played really well. Boks didn't really have to dig deep. That's what should alarm NZ coaches and players.

NZ aren't making teams raise their game to beat them. In fact, most opponents are probably happy to give NZ the ball to attack with at the moment and defend patiently (because NZ's attack aside from individual magic or a Savea inside pass is non existent), knowing they'll make a mistake, gift a penalty or kick it away aimlessly.

I've rarely if ever seen such a toothless AB attack. Opposition defences aren't stressed enough to create the space to attack into. And ABs kicking and kick/chase game is not forcing any mistakes from which to attack in the broken field.

So many areas to look at. Foster needs to focus on 1 or 2 this week to give the team half a chance next week. Lots of ball catching practice this week I imagine!

@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Senatla got 4 weeks in our CC for the same thing on Fassi.

@OomPB said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Senatla got 4 weeks in our CC for the same thing on Fassi.

It's bloody dangerous practice. More risk of serious harm than an inadvertent high shot

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Tim But then after that, he came right and put the SA prop under pressure. Is it a concentration thing?

First scrum with this AB pack, and that Bok pack with Angus’s calling, is always likely to cause initial scrum instability. Many good refs make allowances.

Just rewatching. I'd be interested in @NTA view, but it looked to me as though Kitshoff pulled that down.

In which case, file with kickable penalty against PSDT for non-release on first Marx jackal, and non-penalty for Cane jackal which AG missed and penalised him for fishing on deck.

Will review today. Was running a women's 7s tournament all yesterday and only managed to get the Wallabies game watched.

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

He doesn't have a fucking clue. Totally deluded.

@sparky said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

He doesn't have a fucking clue. Totally deluded.

He's not wrong about the Bok kick chasers waving their hands looking to slap the ball back. Arendse, and Kolbe, both do this.

Mapimpi in general is a very good kick chaser, but he attempts to catch the ball. He's in control of his jump. Not reckless.

Aside from that, I think I watched a different game to Foster. ?

@SidBarret didn’t say it did? But even your cherry-picked examples looked like poor responses to pressure applied in those phases.

@Smuts said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@SidBarret didn’t say it did? But even your cherry-picked examples looked like poor responses to pressure applied in those phases.

The Frizell offside at sacked Bok lineout 5m from line was entirely self inflicted.

@Chester-Draws said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@Higgins said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:

@No-Quarter I just watching through the game again and I think you are being a little tricky with the truth. For example in the 20-30 minute period Beaudie received the ball as 1st receiver at either set piece or phase play only 3 times. Plenty of other players getting it at first receiver.

Beaudie is either in the second line or out the back during that period also.

He did some good things but he made some poor errors last night even with good ball. This is not even about pushing Mo’unga or any other player, but Beaudie hasn’t looked in control for a while and it sucks because he’s been a great player to watch. Ever since he was a rookie he’s been a high risk high reward player, but he learned to do that with control and and patience. He hasn’t played with control for a while now.

Dare we say it - ever since he went to Japan.

He's never been a good 10. He's a brilliant fullback (the only really good thing he did today, he did when marking at the back). These days he doesn't even shine very much at Super level.

We won't get any better until he is gone. I know it is horrible for a guy that has such individual talent, but he's not an international 10.

Our backline has never run smoothly with him in charge. Oh, we sometimes have flashes of individual brilliance, but never one that functions as a unit.

Boulderdash. If only we could see other games that BB hasn't been at 10 to get some form of comparison. Oh that's right, we have. It's exactly the same (if not worse) when RM is at 10. Same with DMac as well. None of them seem to have any idea about what to do under Foster. You have to blend that brilliant instinctive talent with the right tactics. It's not happening and it's frustrating as all hell to see us getting so little out of these 2 players. But obviously that doesn't just apply to them. It's the whole freaking backline. It's a structural issue.

Boulderdash. If only we could see other games that BB hasn't been at 10 to get some form of comparison. Oh that's right, we have. It's exactly the same (if not worse) when RM is at 10. Same with DMac as well. None of them seem to have any idea about what to do under Foster. You have to blend that brilliant instinctive talent with the right tactics. It's not happening and it's frustrating as all hell to see us getting so little out of these 2 players. But obviously that doesn't just apply to them. It's the whole freaking backline. It's a structural issue.

and rush defense has really destroyed time and space for attacking players. Rugby is moving back into a grindfest - getting players into time and space is increasingly difficult.

We haven't recognised this, and want to run teams off their feet, when it's just no longer viable with the current way the game is reffed. You may get this if all refs had instructions to not stop for injuries - but that has legal risks. So, you get big munters playing stop/start, and no chance of actually speeding things up to the point where the extra weight becomes a problem. So it's grinding set pieces and penalties.

Tēnā koe. I'm visiting NZ from my home in Sydney for the first time in several years this week and am writing to you from my hotel room in Christchurch. Over breakfast this morning and at the bar last night, I strained my ears to over-hear conversations about 'Bring On Razor', but all the talk was of the Commonwealth Games or, of all sports, golf - which I'm told is experiencing a renaissance here. No sign of roaming lynch squads, which could be a healthy sign for NZ rugby or, alternatively, that the public has given up.

I did note, however, that the front cover of the NZ Herald this morning is plastered with a full-page editorial calling for Foster to be flushed, although in more restrained terms than that: "A decent man who is out of his depth in a brutal business," was the chosen phrase for the death sentence from the anonymous editorial bench. It was just not five defeats out of six matches, the Herald opines, but the manner of the defeats. "Foster's men are too often cluttered and confused in the execution of their roles." This seems to be a nice way of saying they are playing like headless chooks. Which raises the question of why it took them three years to work that out.

On the plane on the way across the Tasman, I caught up with the Argentina-Wallabies game and had a premonition of the Bledisloe Cup travelling in the other direction this year. The Wallabies played with real rhythm and intent, as did Los Pumas. There is certainly room for argument whether the likes of Hunter Paisami and Jordan Petaia are better players than their All Black opposites, but there is no doubt in my mind that they are better coached. And that is, and has always been, the problem.

It's really not rocket science. New Zealand Rugby made a catastrophic error in appointing Foster. He may be a nice chap, but he is not an innovator and does not have the imagination to take the game forward. As countless others have pointed out, he's like a hack chef who inherited a five-star restaurant and never changed the menu. NZR need to get the cheque book out now and pay Foster out. It seems they almost certainly will at this point.. But that it was allowed to get this far is an indictment on the entire administration.

OK, I had better go and do some real work.

@His-Bobness “ It was just not five defeats out of six matches, the Herald opines, but the manner of the defeats.”

It took the lapdog NZ rugby press time, but they’ve finaly reached the conclusion that the Fern, mostly, has had for a fair few years. But at least they got there!