Who do we build the team around?

[edit - split from the MOTM thread]

@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.

What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.

Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.

In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.

Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.

If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?

@voodoo said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.

What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.

Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.

In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.

Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.

If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?

zero clue, know nothing about their temperaments or personalities.

Of those listed, two are generational talents the likes of which we are unlikely to get to witness again. Two were talents with glaring issues that they went away and not only fixed, but actually improved. One was "too small" and had to work really hard to make the cut at all. One was not physically gifted but had the smarts to get better and better the higher the level he played. The other is a two-code champion renowned for his personal preparation.

Those kinds of personalities don't come around all the time. We had all of them at the same time.

@mariner4life

For me the obvious ones are Whitelock, Smith, BB, but they are all in the twilight of thier careers, they aint likely getting better.

The likes of ALB & Goodhue are both smart footballers who could potentially form a combination and be a big part of our squad for years to come, but they need to play more together.

Then you have Clarke, Sotutu, Jordan, Aumua who are clearly a cut above, but still along way from the finished articles, we need 2 or 3 more (a 9, a 10, lock or prop, mid-fielder) to add to these guys to build a team around.

@sparky said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

@ACT-Crusader Why is Foster picking them if they are out of form?

England have just won their fifth game on the bounce. Their side seem to be enduring okay despite 50,000+ UK deaths, two national lockdowns and Rugby training with more than five people being illegal for five months. Eddie Jones has monitored his players fitness tightly and dropped the guys who weren't meeting his strict expectations.

Don't blame the situation COVID (which is an international crisis), when it's the All Blacks coaches and management that are to blame for yesterday's appalling performance.

It’s not a competition about Covid numbers or deaths, the uncertainty about whether test rugby would even feature.

I’m not blaming Covid so you can cut that hyperbole out. As DM said, some players didn’t look too energised out there. They were underwhelming and tired. So that’s on the players and the coaches. But you can’t deny that it’s mid November and these guys really haven’t had a time to refresh for what would normally be our EOYT right now.

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:

@voodoo said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

@mariner4life said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

The crushing disappointment and righteous public anger of 2007 forged the success of the next 8 years. And that anger built up over 20 years! A core group of players and coaches pretty much said "never again" and did everything in their power to ensure they never felt that level of disappointment. Even bumps on the way (2009) were immediately addressed to ensure we carried on.

What failure do these players know? They drew the Lions series, and everyone moved on. Great series ruined by the French was the general sentiment.

Last year we got flogged in a RWC semi final and we shrugged. Can't win 'em all we said. Beaten by the better side.

In a way, this is our fault for our complacency. We didn't flood talkback with barely comprehensible anger. We didn't write letters to the editor. No one spat on a horse.

Shoulder your portion of the blame guys, this is on us.

If you had to identify 5 current guys to be the equivalent of 5 of Richie, Kaino, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Thorn, Mealamu, to drive this forward over the next 2 cycles, who would you be putting your $ on?

zero clue, know nothing about their temperaments or personalities.

Of those listed, two are generational talents the likes of which we are unlikely to get to witness again. Two were talents with glaring issues that they went away and not only fixed, but actually improved. One was "too small" and had to work really hard to make the cut at all. One was not physically gifted but had the smarts to get better and better the higher the level he played. The other is a two-code champion renowned for his personal preparation.

Those kinds of personalities don't come around all the time. We had all of them at the same time.

i think when you dont have those Generational Talents you have to look at familiarity, pick existing combos, champion team beats a team of champions kind of thing

Nonu and Smith were never as good on their own as when they were together because between the hurricanes and AB how many games would they have played as a pair

I'm not saying bender was up there with richie and carter but he did have a special set of skills, treating every fullback like they can play wing because he and Jane could is just silly

if we dont have world beaters then we need to concentrate on a 23 and make as few changes as possible so they know what they and the guys around them are going to do without thinking about it, then all they have to think about is what the other team is doing

currently our guys look like theyre spending all their time trying to work out what they should be doing

so to answer your original question...dont know

@Nepia i'll say im not a huge fan for Reiko because if anyone dares to try and tackle him he jump up like hes going to punch them and they arrogance to persist with the stupid one hand dot down and dive even when not being tackled...is annoying

in saying that i think purely on form i would have kept starting him and probably at 13, he did well in SRA there and then i think a lot of what he'd worked on has been pissed away by being in and out and playing a couple of different positions

I don't see it as a player talent issue to be honest, our players are good enough, they just need the right coaching and team environment. If we played like Argentina did then we wouldn't be having these issues.

Lock is our biggest issue by far and just the team dynamic re loosies, midfield and back three. I have been very impressed with all the young players, Sotutu, Vaai, Akira, Clarke, Jordan and Puj show lots of promise. If the coaches can't get the best from the talent we have then something needs to change.

Coach not to build a team around - Ian Foster.

@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

Redirect Notice

@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

Actually that's the point I was trying to pick up on. I just wasn't clear.

I wrote that post earlier and moved some stuff around then posted it before a meeting. It actually applies to Rieko, Akira (maybe more than Rieko actually) and definitely Ardie (who has threatened leaving IIR), and it is the concern these guys are pro players who have a limited career span, so it's vital to make it clear that they are part of the future or they'll bolt for that money.

Right now, I'm not sure whether they've done a good job with Rieko, and they are doing a terrible job of making Akira wait too long.

Talented players who are forced to wait too long will leave (e.g., Luatua, Piutau), especially if it's not clear to them that they are part of the long term planning of the team.

What that might also mean is that we might not be able to keep guys long enough to build the super deep leadership groups that we've had in the past, because for various reasons we can't fit them in (e.g., Luatua behind Read) and therefore lose the next generation of leaders. Right now, we could have Luatua as the other senior loosie, but he's gone - we just couldn't hold him, so building leadership teams is getting harder and harder as keeping the really good guys long enough is getting more difficult.

@MN5 OH MY GOD! He said "look at the score" five times! We can't have that sort of behaviour in a professional rugby team.

What an idiotic and hysterical website.

@Tim said in Players to build the team around?:

@MN5 OH MY GOD! He said "look at the score" five times! We can't have that sort of behaviour in a professional rugby team.

What an idiotic and hysterical website.

Completely. But I do remember seeing it and thinking he’s not doing his reputation any good with that carry on.

@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:

@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

Redirect Notice

jeez, i thought he'd been caught throwing some kind of slur! thats the kind of banter i have no problem with

@Kiwiwomble said in Players to build the team around?:

@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:

@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

Redirect Notice

jeez, i thought he'd been caught throwing some kind of slur! thats the kind of banter i have no problem with

Fair enough but notwithstanding the extremely clickbaity headline that’s part of the reason he is regarded like he is I suppose.

BBBR, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith, Sam Cane.

Then one or more of Akira, Sotutu or Clarke. Maybe Jordie as a Specialist Fullback. Seemed to work for the Canes this year.

@Nepia said in Players to build the team around?:

@gt12 said in AB MOTM v Argentina I:

I think Rieko is similar to Akira (and is further along), he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world, but he appears to be too much of a cock to be the person to build the backline around. I wonder whether he is committed to be a great All Black , from my perspective, he seems more about being a career rugby player, which will get you a good life and income but not a great All Black. In that respect, he reminds me of early Nonu, and if he can iron out some flaws, he has tools that could make him a great 13.

You're one of the good eggs around here and your posts are always good reading so I'm surprised you've got Ioane Syndrome.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion in bold?

He was a superstar for two years and in that time never looked like he was in it for the income. Then last year he had to watch as he lost his place to a guy, let's not forget, who scored less tries, ran less metres and beat less defenders in a far superior team. He did this while carrying an injury. Then he had the misfortune to play in the Perth test and that was his starting chance gone.

Then this year he switched to centre and was the form centre most of the comp. I know there's been some revisionism to suggest PUJ was the form centre all comp, but in reality PUJ didn't start catching the eye (outside of Wellington fluffers Winger and Canes4Life) until at least half way through the comp.
He got a chance at centre early on but he's probably not there yet at test level.

So I'm really unsure how that translates to only wanting a career. Both the Ioanes could be earning big coin up north and representing Samoa every few years/RWCs if they were just about a career. I'm also unsure how he's any more of a cock than other ABs?

I think Rieko comes across as a bit of a cock, but who cares - certainly less so than Dane Coles, Scott Barrett, Jordie Barrett, TJ.
However:
Rieko was great, then he wasn't. He played poorly and lost his spot - maybe that's injury-related, and team always has an impact - but whatever, it's still very much true that his standards dropped a lot from his previous heights. Blaming the wingers for Perth was weird, but he had played pretty crap all year. Pretending that never happened is revisionist.
And form centre for the comp? As opposed to who? Sio Tomkinson? The injured Ennor? Quinn Tupaea? Jack Goodhue is the best centre in the country, he was one of the few who stood up against the poms, and he's been pushed to 12 and has been passable only since then. ALB has been playing 12 and was mediocre all super season but has been far, far better than Rieko at centre for the ABs.
At this point he can't pass, and he runs people out of space. He's undoubtedly fast and elusive. Which all screams fucken wing. Maybe he'll make a good centre in the future, but he isn't one now, and now is when we're playing the game.
Anyway, that's a bit off topic.
Build the backs around clarke, ioane, beauden then jordan, goodhue at centre, ALB at 2nd, mounga, smith then fakatava. mckenzie on the bench.
Build the forwards around sotutu... um yeah, that's the problem isn't it. aumua, lomax, laulala, vaai, akira, frizzel, robinson maybe? they're all fucken maybes. whitelock is great, coles too, but both getting on. so too taylor and moody. pat and ardie aren't world beaters against the big boys that i've seen, and they and sam cane are all 1 WC left at best, and cane is highly likely to be invalided out.

i know it's something of a joke, but jordie probably should move to 12. he's a very good player, but he's never going to demand a spot in our back 3 because he's simply not fast or athletic enough.

@sparky generally agree but then i start to worry about smith unless we identify a like for like (in style at least) replacement

I'm doubtful BBBR will come back as the player we remember from pre 2019, he is now 29, next time he suits up for the ABs he will be the same age Sam was at the start of 2019 when there were plenty of people questioning his form and ability to keep going.

I know BBBR was rushed back from injury, but he was poor after he did, and as they say you are only as good as your last game....

Similarly Aaron Smith, he is 31, while in some form, at some point, it will start to wane, and the gap after him is hugemungus as, am hoping Fozzie (cos he aint going anywhere and you know it) is looking for suitable replacements, Weber (29) and TJP (28) are not the answer.

You need world class players spread through the team:
A front rower - Aumua?
A lock - ?
A loosie or 2 if you are lucky - Sotutu
at least the 9 or 10 - Mounga?
and then a mid-field or outside back - Clarke

@reprobate said in Players to build the team around?:

i know it's something of a joke, but jordie probably should move to 12. he's a very good player, but he's never going to demand a spot in our back 3 because he's simply not fast or athletic enough.

I couldn't agree more. I rate JB as a rugby player, but I don't think wing is possible - he'd be a decent 15.

If we pick him, we need to use the big boot, contests in the air and his size. Wing is not that spot.

@taniwharugby said in Players to build the team around?:

I'm doubtful BBBR will come back as the player we remember from pre 2019, he is now 29, next time he suits up for the ABs he will be the same age Sam was at the start of 2019 when there were plenty of people questioning his form and ability to keep going.

I know BBBR was rushed back from injury, but he was poor after he did, and as they say you are only as good as your last game....

I humbly disagree. he got smoked playing well, and then came back early from the injury because of the RWC. After that, all bets are off - you just don't know if he'll come back from his injury like post-Japan Kaino, or like post-UK McAlister

Edit: but to write off one of our greatest locks ever at 29 is not happening.

@nzzp not writing him off, just doubtful he will come back as the dominant player he was, and if he does, for how long?

We still have issues behind him, and for now, Whitelock.

Tuipoluto isnt dominating like a guy of his size should, Scott Barret is full of brain farts, Vai'i, while looks a handy player, not sure will rise to become a great.

How do you accurately judge a players discipline? Was Ardie unlucky when he got pulled off his feet and landed on the wrong side giving away a penalty? Or should he not have made the play?

It seems a very fine line at times, do players intentionally pull down mauls, enter from the side, off their feet, pancake etc. Is it poor technique, poor game knowledge or just unlucky.

On the weekend we got smashed with those soft penalties where the player should have known better. When you aggregate all these penalties it certainly stopped us building pressure and allowed Sanchez to build points.

Can you coach those stupid plays out of players or are some more prone to it than others?

@chimoaus well a penalty conceded is a penalty conceded, the slip of a bind at scrumtime equals the same as a dumb little slap.

SOmetimes pulling down a maul is deliberate, hopefully just a penalty to stop a try...but alot of the times a foot slips, a player lets you go, pulls at you...

Just unfortunate.

@taniwharugby said in Players to build the team around?:

@nzzp not writing him off, just doubtful he will come back as the dominant player he was, and if he does, for how long?

We still have issues behind him, and for now, Whitelock.

Tuipoluto isnt dominating like a guy of his size should, Scott Barret is full of brain farts, Vai'i, while looks a handy player, not sure will rise to become a great.

AWJ ain't doing to bad at much older

I think the talent is here but it's more a collective (or coaching) issue.

This is like the "inventors dilemma" of selection and team building. We held on to a big group of top class players until they were past it, leaving us with lots of inexperienced players with potential to be top class at international level.

@taniwharugby said in Players to build the team around?:

Tuipoluto isnt dominating like a guy of his size should

This is true, and I wish they would use him to hit the ball up in the middle of the park, and target guys for hits with a rush defence close in too. Don't think he suits the go wide quickly and short passing game plans they use.

@nzzp said in Players to build the team around?:

@reprobate said in Players to build the team around?:

i know it's something of a joke, but jordie probably should move to 12. he's a very good player, but he's never going to demand a spot in our back 3 because he's simply not fast or athletic enough.

I couldn't agree more. I rate JB as a rugby player, but I don't think wing is possible - he'd be a decent 15.

If we pick him, we need to use the big boot, contests in the air and his size. Wing is not that spot.

I know it’s a small sample so far but Jordie’s kicking game from the back has been all over the show during this years tests. Has been one of the problems. Was it much better during SRA?

I also believe he is a natural midfielder.

Piutau, Luatua, Ngatai, Parker. Who am I missing?

Listen to this shit from Jeff whathisname of Sky Sport:

The solution to the AB physicality problem is Liam Squire? WTF? He's fucking near 30 and been out of the game for ages. And you are a professional who gets paid for this shit? Jesus.

Parsons rightly points to Akira, thank god. FFS, he's there and he's a unit. He's a fast unit. He's an aggressive unit. He's ready. Just fucking run him out and tell him this is his chance.

@gt12 I knew I was missing one!

Of course.

Squire.

@Bones sorry are you counting missing overseas players? Vito? (or has he retired?)

@nostrildamus said in Players to build the team around?:

@Bones sorry are you counting missing overseas players? Vito? (or has he retired?)

Sure, we need good, solid locks. Cruden and TKB are sorely missed.

TKB played well for the ABs in the tight last minutes. Cruden might have fancied his chances. But I can't think of any young-enough locks overseas that might be worthy of a return. Please no one say Isaac Ross (even if he is back).

@nostrildamus said in Players to build the team around?:

TKB played well for the ABs in the tight last minutes. Cruden might have fancied his chances. But I can't think of any young-enough locks overseas that might be worthy of a return. Please no one say Isaac Ross (even if he is back).

Fatialofa and that other big bloke for the Canes (with the big head) were pretty good at denting the line...

Edit: remembered now, Lousi.

Which reminds me, an in form Hemopo would probably be pretty useful.

@Bones said in Players to build the team around?:

Hemopo

I had forgotten him! Good, abrasive player but: not tall for an international lock, and don't we have good enough stock now at 6 and 8?