No Japan?
I can't fathom how NZ rugby hasn't offered a 4 team plus Pasifika set-up to Japan, including support to get them in the Rugby Championship. It's ridiculous.
They could keep the Top league on at a different time to Super Rugby, and have the two top red and white league place getters join Super rugby (perhaps with some allowance to get a bigger squad).
Or they could pick winners and get bids from 4 teams to join Super rugby, which would leave them with a 12 team competition for the Top league - whether those teams could join other competitions would be another conversation.
Given that the Top League was designed to bring up the standard of Japanese rugby, I'm reasonably sure (I only know a few people involved in a roundabout way) that teams would want to be in Super Rugby if they could be, and there would be some support for it in the JRFU.
I spoke with a coach of TL team not that long ago and he was telling me that the Sunwolves were great, but always destined for failure because they didn't open up enough spots to get some of the strong company teams involved - and the better players that they have available.
It was somewhat understandable though as picking one winner (probably Panasonic) would have been very hard. However, choosing four well-financed squads though some application process would, I hope, be more manageable and would lead to Japan having a gradation in the professional leagues of its players.
If they scheduled the games right, they could make the Top league the premier domestic competition, and Super the international competition.
Plus, of course, the All Blacks could offer to support Japan joining the Rugby Championship, which would be a massive boost to Japan if it happened. That's a lot of dollars and sold out stadiums for the Japan NZ and Oz games, and with SA being World Champs, that would sell out too.
Whether it would work or could happen, I obviously don't know - I'm not in the industry, but if the NZRFU hasn't been actively trying to make it happen, they are idiots.
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
"If NZR are serious they'll issue a licence… now or never."Well I guess that's the end of them.
Probably.
NZR are doubling down on the "mystery meeting".
Brent Impey:
“I’m chairman of Sanzaar and there has not been a Sanzaar board meeting since August 4,” said Impey in reference to the leaked minutes from a CEOs meeting on September 17 that appeared to show NZR had agreed to the December 12 conclusion.
“The notes that have been published are not board minutes and have got a fundamental error in them as far as we’re concerned that says the six-week draw was agreed by all. I can tell you it wasn’t. We know that and Rugby Australia and Sanzaar know that because we kept telling them right up until the time they announced the draw.
“The notes also quite clearly refer to an impasse and there are many emails that prove this. So our position has never changed. Having said that, our focus is trying to get this TRC issue sorted and we’re not going to bother to engage in tit-for-tat on so-called notes which weren’t minutes and weren’t board minutes either.
Well I have to laugh, South China Lions, based out of Bay of Plenty. Pretty sure this was meant to be part of Twiggys comp and pretty sure they didn't play a game due to covid. The calibre of that comp wasn't great either. I thought the idea was great for BoP players to potentially get ready for Mitre10 cup and hopefully to become Super Rugby players,. This scenario would be a massive jump in class..
The mafia for years have suggested BoP as a Super base (based on being a mafia, no facts necessary).. No horses heads please, but I cant imagine we're anywhere near ready if this rumour was to become true...
It's a good idea to read the article instead of only Liam Napier's tweet:
Impey confirmed his board had rubber-stamped, subject to certain caveats involving broadcasters, the players’ association and the Sanzaar collective, its professional franchise competition for next year, and it would look decidedly similar to this year’s post-Covid solution, but with a couple of important improvements.
“There has been a lot of speculation around our keenness to include a Pasifika team in Super Rugby, and we’re still committed to getting that across the line at some point. But the board believes we must get this right,” he added.
“Yesterday the NZR board short-listed four preferred [candidates] for 2022 and beyond, subject to those caveats mentioned previously. We hope to announce them shortly, but some are subject to commercial confidentiality at this point.
“The board is committed to approving a minimum of three teams from the shortlist, with that decision to be made on 30 November.”
In terms of the makeup of those potential expansion franchises, all Impey could say was: “They are a combination of New Zealand and broadly Pasifika-based teams around the Asia-Pacific region. It’s not just New Zealand [teams] and not just Pasifika.”
Told the Hawaii-based Kanaloa outfit had indicated they were ready to proceed next year, Impey reiterated NZR’s view: “The board wasn’t satisfied at this point that any of applicants were able to put a team or provide the necessary financial backing. The last thing we want is for any team to come in and get smashed. Yes, there were parties that wanted licences for 2021, but we considered ... none were ready.”
Based on this I think they're not likely to approve the addition of any of the teams mentioned, unless they can be competitive.
I have had a few beers tonight, but the only new NZ team should be North Auckland based in Albany. There should be a serious effort at elevating touch rugby style games and under 85 kg rugby to build youth support in an area that has almost jettisoned rugby (but is massively into basketball and football).
Lets not kid ourselves here - the only loss is the SA money.
Outside finals, crowds at NZ-SA matches in super rugby could measured in the 100's in SA and barely in the thousands in NZ. NZ needs to jump on the Japan train, before the 6N do and literally setup a rich country tournament (for growing the game, obviously).
@MajorRage said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Lets not kid ourselves here - the only loss is the SA money.
Outside finals, crowds at NZ-SA matches in super rugby could measured in the 100's in SA and barely in the thousands in NZ. NZ needs to jump on the Japan train, before the 6N do and literally setup a rich country tournament (for growing the game, obviously).
Japan works with our timezones. I wonder how the Japanese would feel about jumping back into bed with us again given how badly the Sunwolves were treated?
@MajorRage said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Lets not kid ourselves here - the only loss is the SA money.
Outside finals, crowds at NZ-SA matches in super rugby could measured in the 100's in SA and barely in the thousands in NZ. NZ needs to jump on the Japan train, before the 6N do and literally setup a rich country tournament (for growing the game, obviously).
I can't fathom how NZ rugby hasn't offered a 4 team plus pasifika set-up to Japan, including support to get them in the Rugby Championship. It's ridiculous.
@gt12 how does that work for Japan's current domestic comp which is owned and controlled by their major corporations?
@gt12 Sounds pretty reasonable - I think a champions league style format would make more sense personally, but either way i agree they should be trying to make it happen. I was always of the understanding those Top league teams had little interest.
I also agree that Japan would be a perfect addition to the RC.
@Cantab79 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@MajorRage said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Lets not kid ourselves here - the only loss is the SA money.
Outside finals, crowds at NZ-SA matches in super rugby could measured in the 100's in SA and barely in the thousands in NZ. NZ needs to jump on the Japan train, before the 6N do and literally setup a rich country tournament (for growing the game, obviously).
Japan works with our timezones. I wonder how the Japanese would feel about jumping back into bed with us again given how badly the Sunwolves were treated?
Were they badly treated by us or SANZAAR? Hopefully they can differentiate.
Working with Japan to create a champions league style cherry on top, would be great. And it appears this is in fact exactly what has been happening until the NZRU v ARU bitch fight drowned out all other news.
But, trying to create a round robin super tournament with 3 or 4 Sunwolves teams in it would be both shit, and madness. You'd be
a) battling the financial power of the Top League owners, who aren't interested, and would see it as a threat.
b) working with a union partner who appears to be totally indifferent to it (The JRFU).
c) Keeping all the disadvantages of inter-contintental travel costs.
d) Keeping all the fan engagement disadvantages of inter-contintental franchise tournaments where fans don't give a crap about opposition fake teams from countries a hemisphere away from them.
@Tim said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12369850
Rob Nichol making more sense in his collaborative rather than combative approach for me. Watching NZ and Aus currently is like a poor version of US politics....handbags from 5 paces, both trying to undermine each other and one dick may come out on top, but rugby wont.
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph i get that, im just saying if we're writing off next season as a stop gap...why not try and make the comp we have awesome rather than such a diluted super comp
we always hear the NPC cant be the top cop anymore...but we havent really seen a fully funded/marketed/backed NPC for a very long time, so we can know for sure and this seem like a great chance to try
I'm with ya. Have been banging that drum for weeks, or months even. And now the ABs are gone for the rest of this NPC, I'm even more for it.
Another upside with having a full-blooded NPC in lieu of a poor-mans' SR is the ability to develop players so when we go into a proper SR tournament in 2022, we're far better equipped.
@bayimports said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Tim said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Rob Nichol making more sense in his collaborative rather than combative approach for me. Watching NZ and Aus currently is like a poor version of US politics....handbags from 5 paces, both trying to undermine each other and one dick may come out on top, but rugby wont.
Maybe its about time NZ took the lead.
Aust and SA basically f++ked super rugby by adding too many teams. If it has been left at 3 and 4 as a12 team competition I doubt it would have declined like it did. But NZ taking the lead will (obviously) upset the Aussies. But the ideal new competition would only have 8 teams. 5 from NZ and three from Aussie. With a focus on ensuring all teams have a chance of winning.
If the Aussies play silly buggers (as they are doing) then let them go it along for the main competition. As NZ should also (I prefer this to playing weak Aussie teams). With an attempt to have a separate knockout crossover competition. Hopefully including more than just Aust teams
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph i get that, im just saying if we're writing off next season as a stop gap...why not try and make the comp we have awesome rather than such a diluted super comp
we always hear the NPC cant be the top cop anymore...but we havent really seen a fully funded/marketed/backed NPC for a very long time, so we can know for sure and this seem like a great chance to try
I'm with ya. Have been banging that drum for weeks, or months even. And now the ABs are gone for the rest of this NPC, I'm even more for it.
Another upside with having a full-blooded NPC in lieu of a poor-mans' SR is the ability to develop players so when we go into a proper SR tournament in 2022, we're far better equipped.
So ignore a successful competition that NZ can afford and punt on something different? And losing so many top players is hopefully a one off
@Tim said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12369850
“We’ve been able to demonstrate you can assemble a strong squad from outside of the New Zealand player base. They’re all back here in New Zealand, Australia and the islands. And there’s a quality coaching group.
Without seeing a list of names, I'm not convinced by Nichol's statement that that Pasifika squad will be competitive enough and strong enough to beat the 5 other teams. Who are these players? The best PI players from outside the current 5 franchises are still playing in Europe.
This is also telling:
Nichol confirmed their plan for the sixth team was a collaboration between NZRPA, Pasifika and the Counties Manukau union and had not yet had a chance to work through the detail required.
This reaction also seems a bit over the top. NZR is, after all, keen for the addition of a Pasifika team from 2022:
Nichol said Thursday’s announcement had caused “unbelievable angst” among the Pasifika community. “They feel let down, they feel betrayed. I have no doubt this is going to manifest itself over the weeks ahead, unless NZ Rugby do a very quick about-turn.”
@Winger If it's 'NZ's time to take the lead' they are doing a fucken shite job of it. Leading is about far more than making unilateral decisions without consultation.
The suggestion that it's about 'not playing weaker Australian teams' has been well and truly dismissed - given the provided alternatives actually include our weakest team.
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But the ideal new competition would only have 8 teams. 5 from NZ and three from Aussie. With a focus on ensuring all teams have a chance of winning.
Then we should only have 4 NZ teams, because at least one of the NZ teams is utter shit every year.
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But the ideal new competition would only have 8 teams. 5 from NZ and three from Aussie. With a focus on ensuring all teams have a chance of winning.
Then we should only have 4 NZ teams, because at least one of the NZ teams is utter shit every year.
yeah but it rotates pretty regularly
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But the ideal new competition would only have 8 teams. 5 from NZ and three from Aussie. With a focus on ensuring all teams have a chance of winning.
Then we should only have 4 NZ teams, because at least one of the NZ teams is utter shit every year.
Except this year as one example. The Chiefs even managed to beat the Crusaders
@Machpants the biggest issue you have with a stand-alone comp isn't with your weakest team - it's with your strongest. In the 25 year history of SR only one other Kiwi team has ever beaten the Crusaders in a final (the Blues, once).
@Derpus Rennie's Chiefs didn't wait for the final and decided to beat the Crusaders in the semi. 
@Bovidae Yeah sure, the Tahs also beat the Crusaders last season and they've been proper garbage for a few years. But the Crusaders walked the comp both years as a whole.
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph i get that, im just saying if we're writing off next season as a stop gap...why not try and make the comp we have awesome rather than such a diluted super comp
we always hear the NPC cant be the top cop anymore...but we havent really seen a fully funded/marketed/backed NPC for a very long time, so we can know for sure and this seem like a great chance to try
I'm with ya. Have been banging that drum for weeks, or months even. And now the ABs are gone for the rest of this NPC, I'm even more for it.
Another upside with having a full-blooded NPC in lieu of a poor-mans' SR is the ability to develop players so when we go into a proper SR tournament in 2022, we're far better equipped.
So ignore a successful competition that NZ can afford and punt on something different? And losing so many top players is hopefully a one off
You mean the one-off iteration of SR Aotearoa after not having had any rugby for several months? You think it's going to go as well in 2021? You're dreaming. It's only advantage is the value of the broadcasting content.
We know losing players isn't a one-off. We see an exodus after every RWC, and plenty inbetween.
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@taniwharugby yes. But under NZ laws you cannot deny an NZer a job because they are not qualified to play for the ABs, but NZR successfully do.
Which law is that? I'm not so sure that's true.
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
The quota is two non NZ qualified players per SR team, others have to apply for dispensation. I'm not an employment laws expert, but that has got to be illegal. But they get away with it because it is not challenged. Or maybe hard too challenge. Either way, same applies for PI team. There only problem they have is foreign players will have too get working visa, not easy. So they'll mostly be PI kiwis.
Again, based on which law would that be illegal?
Definitely not the Human Rights Act, which only forbids discrimination based on sex, marital status, religious belief, ethical belief, colour, race, and ethnic or national origins. Dinstinugishing players based on which country they are eligible to represent in sport doesn't fall under any of these criteria. Not signing someone who's white, however, is.
Yeha I could be totally wrong, but say I want to employ someone and I say to NZ born/passport holder who has played for Samoa - sorry won't employ you cos you can't reperesent ABs. That is what NZR do with SR. Maybe sports have a different rule that the rest of the jobs in NZ?
Simple solution in sport is - I’m not going to select you because you’re not what we are looking for; you have ‘work ons’, you’re rubbish...etc
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Winger said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But the ideal new competition would only have 8 teams. 5 from NZ and three from Aussie. With a focus on ensuring all teams have a chance of winning.
Then we should only have 4 NZ teams, because at least one of the NZ teams is utter shit every year.
Except this year as one example. The Chiefs even managed to beat the Crusaders
Highway robbery was that hatchet job by the ref
I hope they go to Oz, they can dilute their teams not ours. And AR can be responsible for the bills. Cos a team not based in Fiji (etc) is nothing more than another SR team in our comp.
This pisses me off tho "the All Blacks and Super Rugby teams continue to be heavily reliant on players of Pasifika heritage" yes we have a ton off players, born in NZ, of Pacific heritage. But they are kiwi born and trained, mostly. We rely less on that than Samoa and Tonga rely on NZ born and trained players.
