Wallabies out. Danger signs for NZ rugby

Sadly I think it’s now Aussie “rugby”

@Chris maybe we really need to look internally at improving our competitions, and given there was talk of tours to SA as well, that could be to spark needed.

@Chris Let more NZ players play in European club Rugby and in Japan. It’s worked for South Africa.

@taniwharugby said in Aussie Rugby:

@Chris maybe we really need to look internally at improving our competitions, and given there was talk of tours to SA as well, that could be to spark needed.

Yeah those SA tours will be brilliant,I think you are right about internally growing add another SR team from NZ,As it seems NPC is not the answer according to the NZR.

Add a Japanese and Argie team,Drua are going well,Look to grow into the USA.
force Australia to drop at least one team.

@sparky said in Aussie Rugby:

@Chris Let more NZ players play in European club Rugby and in Japan. It’s worked for South Africa.

I understand what you are saying,But I think it will stuff our competitions.
It would be shit having our best 30 players only playing at home 3 or 4 times a year in test matches.
It would I think hurt our development underneath the ABs doing that.

@Chris said in Aussie Rugby:

@sparky said in Aussie Rugby:

@Chris Let more NZ players play in European club Rugby and in Japan. It’s worked for South Africa.

I understand what you are saying,But I think it will stuff our competitions.
It would be shit having our best 30 players only playing at home 3 or 4 times a year in test matches.
It would I think hurt our development underneath the ABs doing that.

My feeling is that we could do it if if were in sanctioned competitions such as a pro comp with Japanese teams.

All Blacks (perhaps after a certain number of caps) could play in that comp and still be available.

@gt12 not sure how ABs playing in a Japanese comp is going to help prepare for test rugby vs Europe and the Saffas.....

@KiwiMurph said in Aussie Rugby:

@gt12 not sure how ABs playing in a Japanese comp is going to help prepare for test rugby vs Europe and the Saffas.....

Me neither to be honest, but it doesn't seem to be hurting the SA players who are playing there.

And look what they’re paying Tupou to go down to Melbourne. Should have burnt it.

@mariner4life said in Aussie Rugby:

There is significant danger that what we are seeing now is not a temporary blip, but the beginning of the end for the code as a serious force.

agree with everything except this....i think the beginning was a long time ago, the AB's success from 2010 - 2019 kind of plastered over cracks and the aussie rugby kind of rode on the coat tails by being in the RC and super rugby

If im honest im worried NZ is just where aussie was a decade ago, in 10 years we're going to be on here debating why concentrating almost solely on the international game and only investing on the very best of the best hasn't worked

@Kiwiwomble that's actually very fair comment

We can't decide on a structure for NZ moving forward either. And where Aus have a bunch of guys who think the Shute Shield is the way to go because that's what historical success came from, we have people who still think the NPC should be the bedrock.

The NH have shown if you build a solid club game, international success flows from that. NZ and Australia are still thinking the opposite (i used to think it was only Aus but your comment actually made me think about it).

Ouch.

Daniel Leo on Twitter

@mariner4life said in Aussie Rugby:

This morning felt like rock bottom for Australian rugby, it really did.

It does right now.

But whenever RA reach the bottom of the barrel, they'll say "hand me that axe, would ya?"

If you think about some of the things that make and keep a country strong on the international stage, you'd have a list looking something like this:

1. lots of engaged players
2. strong and growing community support
3. well-run administration
4. access to strong competitions with like-minded countries

NZ and Oz will always be down the list on #1 (see below, sorted for Adult males)

We have had success with #2 for a long time, Australia less so in recent years.

#3 seems to be an issue for us both right now

#4 we had this once, but even then it wasn't perfect given the way Super rugby is played. The RC helped with regular competition against SA. Right now, we have nothing - geographically we are pretty fcked, and long ago we opted to play Australia 17 times every year cos money or something.

To be honest, I think the strength of #1 and #4 for NH teams is going to be really hard to turn around for both NZ and Oz. I can totally see why SA opted to join them, and they're never coming back. We are in danger of turning into Argentina.

@mariner4life my current feeling is concentrating on only the best of the best is too narrow, we've seen that 3-4 of the super teams will all be trying to play the same style of rugby...it doesn't allow for innovation....so it works when it works....but when it doesnt...you're fucked

At this point I'm open to any idea. Even throwing our money at the Premier Clubs to form a national competition and hoping that works.

Previously the national competition was deliberately sabotaged by Sydney Premier Rugby so fuck it. Let them eat cake.

I think if you look at Australian rugby with a very long lens (since 1960) then this doesn't look like rock bottom. What it looks like is a reversion to the mean.

And the period from 1990-2003 is the outlier. As the code became more professional, Australia adapted much better than any other nation and were richly rewarded. As the other countries caught up, we've gone back to the pack.

So now we sit were we always have, maybe slightly below. We will rise and fall but the idea we will return to #1 is fanciful.

@voodoo do you really think NZ still has a "strong and growing community support"? feels like thats been dwindling for years, in any tangible way anyway anyway, everyone saying they support the local team when asked is very different to actually giving over their time and or money

Revert the Bledisloe to one match, and play four test tours against South Africa.

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@voodoo do you really think NZ still has a "strong and growing community support"? feels like thats been dwindling for years, in any tangible way anyway anyway, everyone saying they support the local team when asked is very different to actually giving over their time and or money

I dunno mate, haven't lived in NZ since '99. I'd from afar that the population appears invested still at least, unlike Oz?

But if we don't have that either, then it's even more dire than I thought

@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:

I think if you look at Australian rugby with a very long lens (since 1960) then this doesn't look like rock bottom. What it looks like is a reversion to the mean.

And the period from 1990-2003 is the outlier. As the code became more professional, Australia adapted much better than any other nation and were richly rewarded. As the other countries caught up, we've gone back to the pack.

So now we sit were we always have, maybe slightly below. We will rise and fall but the idea we will return to #1 is fanciful.

When I suggested that elsewhere, a bunch of nuffies shouted me down.

Historically - prior to the 80s, say - we've had the odd good win against a proper rugby nation and long stretches of zero.

I think you could easily say Grand Slam through to 2001 we seriously overachieved, but for many that became the norm.

Hence why you see old farts saying Club Rugby is the answer.

@Tim said in Aussie Rugby:

play four test tours against South Africa.

Will they agree to that? They might take a look at the situation with URC and the antipodes and just try to make it the 8N with Georgia.

Oz Rugby is in no worse shape than Welsh Rugby. Eddie has just come along and made it far, far worse, while Gatland has kept it together.

Remember that Oz went to Dublin and only lost 13-10 a year ago.

@voodoo I think people would become more invested in NPC if it was the main focus for NZR (below ABs) but that wont happen as it would appear NZR has all but washed its hands of the NPC.

NZR really needs to have a look at things and map a way forward from here, closer ties with Japan is one part of the equation for the money it will generate, but again this wont help our on field play.

@voodoo NZ doesn't look much better to me, clubs going belly up, abysmal crowds in stands, i think some of us look at +60k people turning up to an AB's game and think all is fine....what we need to +20k every week for all teams in the super rugby

The fact the AB's can play in chch in the stadium with 25k capacity...and you can still get tickets the week of (that was my experience when living in chch)...aint good

@Kiwiwomble Yep

The purpose of my post was to paint a depressing picture, not a positive one. I'm actually a bit down on where we go from here, I genuinely think we are in for a long period of NH /SA dominance. Strong and well backed club game, with a really solid test window against quality teams - self-perpetuating stuff.

NZ can maybe replicate the club format (or NPC, I dunno), but that'll take time. And our geographic position means quality tests are always tough to schedule - we have years of experience of France and England sending C teams to play us in June, then we get the Wallabies who suck, and now SA don't want to play us anymore. Playing Japan is fun but ain't gonna solve the issue

@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:

I think if you look at Australian rugby with a very long lens (since 1960) then this doesn't look like rock bottom. What it looks like is a reversion to the mean.

And the period from 1990-2003 is the outlier. As the code became more professional, Australia adapted much better than any other nation and were richly rewarded. As the other countries caught up, we've gone back to the pack.

So now we sit were we always have, maybe slightly below. We will rise and fall but the idea we will return to #1 is fanciful.

I've been saying that for years to supporters whose expectations were set on a generation of outliers. People without a sense or knowledge of history. The amount of disbelief when you explain to some of them that the Wallabies have lost to Tonga for example. The sad aspect is it didn't have to be this way, but instead of becoming Ireland, they spent 20 years mismanaging it and squandering the opportunity.

That's why there's the hope that 2025-27 will be a great reset. But as the FIFA WWC showed, you need your team to be successful at the same time. Eddie may well be correct that there's quality in the current squad that will turn into world class players, but that light at the end of the tunnel is very dim.

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@voodoo NZ doesn't look much better to me, clubs going belly up, abysmal crowds in stands, i think some of us look at +60k people turning up to an AB's game and think all is fine....what we need to +20k every week for all teams in the super rugby

Why, when you can watch it from home and not get gouged for food and drinks at a ridiculous nonfamily friendly time?

Australia needs to drop two SR teams, or there needs to be more NZ teams. Current competition isn't competitive.

@antipodean i cant argue with that...but other sports manage it (and much more), so i think rugby is missing something

@Tim said in Aussie Rugby:

Australia needs to drop two SR teams, or there needs to be more NZ teams. Current competition isn't competitive.

personally i feel that means theyre only going to be developing less than a hundred top players...so i feel the latter is a better option, might lower the average skill level in the short term....but long term i think it will come back up

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@antipodean i cant argue with that...but other sports manage it (and much more), so i think rugby is missing something

I'd change the scheduling so that there was only one marquee game at night and the rest during the day so families could attend. I'd also make it cheaper for families to attend games which drives atmosphere. Better atmosphere, more water cooler talk, more attendance.

@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@antipodean i cant argue with that...but other sports manage it (and much more), so i think rugby is missing something

I'd change the scheduling so that there was only one marquee game at night and the rest during the day so families could attend. I'd also make it cheaper for families to attend games which drives atmosphere. Better atmosphere, more water cooler talk, more attendance.

definitely

@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@antipodean i cant argue with that...but other sports manage it (and much more), so i think rugby is missing something

I'd change the scheduling so that there was only one marquee game at night and the rest during the day so families could attend. I'd also make it cheaper for families to attend games which drives atmosphere. Better atmosphere, more water cooler talk, more attendance.

But think of the TV rights holders!

@NTA said in Aussie Rugby:

@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:

@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:

@antipodean i cant argue with that...but other sports manage it (and much more), so i think rugby is missing something

I'd change the scheduling so that there was only one marquee game at night and the rest during the day so families could attend. I'd also make it cheaper for families to attend games which drives atmosphere. Better atmosphere, more water cooler talk, more attendance.

But think of the TV rights holders!

lol you need an audience for TV

Fuck me look at this

"Rugby is nothing to do with schools"

FFS...

@NTA No, what he's saying is that the priority of schools isn't to be a part of a pathway.

Now that may be part of the overall systemic problem, but that isn't the schools fault nor should it be on them to fix it.